Islam is not a race, not an ethnicity - Salt Lake American Muslim SLAAM

Islam is not a race and not an ethnicity - response to a page by the group Salt Lake American Muslim:

The page at http://www.saltlakeamericanmuslim.com/#!our-story has the following statement:

"In an effort to curb current tension experienced between Muslims and non-Muslims globally, which is similar to that faced historically by Native Americans, Irish Americans, Jewish Americans, African Americans, Japanese Americans, Hispanic Americans and now Muslim Americans - Salt Lake American Muslim undertakes multicultural activities such as our festival A Celebration of Cultural Diversity to generate mutual understanding and goodwill not only between Muslims and non-Muslims but among all ethnic communities that reside in Salt Lake County through sharing of the very best ethnic cultural artistic expression as part of the American acculturation process."

Response:

Religion is not a race, not an ethnicity.

Becoming an American does not mean forcing your children & women to wear tight bags or scarfs covering most of their heads, and cloth that drapes all the way down to their feet.

Islam is not a race, it's a religion, a "meme set," and as with any set of memes it should be subject to the same set of criticisms that any meme set can be subject to. Criticism. Debate. Openness. Honesty. It's not too much to ask?
 
The sins of Bush should not be apologized for by dishonesty. All conservative religions have inherent lies at their heart. The group Salt Lake American Muslim (SLAAM) is very concerned about what happened with past immigrants to the US. That's nice. But here's a key message: Just stop abusing your children, that's all.

To the Jews: stop mutilating the genitals of your children.

To the Muslims: Ditto, with the added comment that you should also stop requiring your women and girls to wear cloth bags or tight scarfs.

Does your cultural diversity extend to allowing for skeptics and for atheists in your group? How about ex-Muslims? Are these types of people welcome in your "community?"

What is the response of your group to the following video from the Center for Inquiry, about how conservative Islam leads to breeding suicide bombers?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxfo11A7XuA

Welcome to America though, where freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and thankfully freedom from religion are supposed to be guaranteed by law. I'm not responsible for the sins of Bush or for what happened in Iraq. I'm also not responsible for the sins of Sadam, or the past sins of the CIA and so on. I'm primarily interested in honesty. Most religions aren't interested in this. Honesty cuts into the preacher's & the Imam's  pay, so of course they hate it.

Thoughts on hyphenated Americans, racism, and cynicism

Is it dogmatic to question dogma? Only if atheism is somehow equivalent to a conservative religion.

Yes, we could be crass cynics like Matt Stone & Trey Parker are, and spew forth flatulence which while briefly humorous becomes quickly sick and putrid.

People of a certain color can't jump. People from another culture tend to have trashy back yards and are not noted for high quality craftsmanship. People from another culture get very angry indeed at cartoons or other humor revolving around past historic and non-historic figures.

Everyone's a bit racist. The hyphenated language that permeates forums such as NPR is key evidence of this. Frankly, I don't care if you're a hyphenated American this or that. Get on with life and do something useful, other than obsess about which hyphenated phrase you can associate with yourself and others.

Is such a request cynical dogma? A dogmatist is unwilling to question his own suppositions. People on the right and left perfectly fit into the same box in this regard. The main thing I question about hyphenated Americans is that their labels take too much of my verbal time to state the self-assigned labels. And the second thing I question is that maybe the hyphenated phrases people assign to themselves & others aren't really all that accurate.

For example:

Who is a Native American? Anyone born in America. That is the traditional definition of the word "native."

Who is an African American? All humans in America, because we all came out of Africa.

And what was adding a religion to the hyphenation?

Muslim American

Mormonism American

Catholic American

Scientologist American

Idiot American

What a waste of time and language to merge these words together.

Who are your ancestors? It's ok to use labels to describe your ancestry. But adding the word "American" to your label is a lame, time wasting, pompous, and superfluous.

That Shitty Chicken Place: I never eat there anyway

I never eat at the chicken place currently being mentioned in the news, and haven't done so since maybe one time about 15 or 20 years ago when Crossroads Mall was still open. Should gay people get married? I don't think the law should ban adults from doing what they please with other adults. I'm still in favor of questioning all suppositions and dogmas, left and right alike. So I'm willing to listen to all sides. But I don't think the force of law should be used to keep people from doing what they please with other adults.

However I do think that the crucible of debate should be used to shine a light on all dogma, left and right alike. For example here's one guy with enough balls to do this:
http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1578785

Ad hominem attacks and conversation killers like "racist," "bigot," and "misogynist" don't help further the conversation. It goes without saying that the COO of the "shitty-chicken-place-that-I-never-go-to-anyway" could rightly be described as a bigot. But all this fervor makes me think we should also take a step back and examine >why< people think the way they do. There may be naturalistic explanations to why people respond the way they do to things. Religion is after all a natural phenomenon, like it or not. Maybe what people really object to is who's making a contribution to moving humanity forward? Are you doing it? Am I?

Is it difficult but still possible to listen to both sides in a vociferous debate and to take a step back from both sides and do a more thorough evaluation. Do we have the balls to ask hard questions of both sides?

In any case, let's all try to be less selfish. Think about legacy. And let the people who like the shitty chicken place go there if they want. I never go there anyway.

Sam Harris, Scott Atran, banning Islam, racism, and apology for abusive religion

Back in December of 2010 I wrote this article about Scott Atran. Atran has many basic misunderstandings about what it like to live in a conservative religion.

On February 23, 2011 Atran wrote this article criticizing Harris's new book the Moral Landscape. On page 6 of Atran's article he claims that Sam Harris has proposed a ban on Islam, but he fails to provide any references.

Harris has talked about the dangers of Islamic ideas that lead to suicide bombing.

One strange thing I heard today though was that Harris is supposedly a racist for wanting to ban Islam.

There's two really big problems with such a claim:

Problem 1: Islam is not a race. It's a religion.

Problem 2: Sam Harris has never proposed that there be a ban on Islam.

Maybe children should not be abused with having lies shoved down their throats by ignorant abusive parents. That's my view. Whether Harris was expressed concerns about this or not is irrelevant, because as far as I can tell he's never proposed a legal ban on Islam. And even if he had, such a view would not be racist, because Islam is not a race.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali has stated that everyone is a little bit racist. Avenue Q has stated this as well. And even with this being the case, Islam is not a race. It never was. It never will be. Religion is not a race. And, Sam Harris never said that Islam should be banned. You think he did? Prove it. And Scott Atran is an idiot, and a defato purposeful apologist for Islam and abusive religion.

In America we have freedom of religion, and thankfully increasingly freedom from religion.

Children should be educated about all human religions, their history, and so on.

Children should be educated about science, and about how in the past religions were very fearful about what science showed - for example about the Earth, the sun, the stars, and our geographic place in the Universe. Religion is still fearful about what science shows, about their supposed gods. Children should not be lied to. They should be taught the truth. And religions are full of lies, lies supported by fear & control, arguments from authority, and arguments based on abusive psycological manipulation.

People like Atran have no concept of this because they haven't lived it. Here's links to some people who have:

Me: http://corvus.freeshell.org/corvus_corax/two/life_path/life_path.htm
Others: http://exmormonfoundation.org
http://ex-muslim.org.uk
A guy who lived in hard core sexually repressive Islam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxfo11A7XuA&feature=plcp

---

More info:

letter to Scott Atran - regarding his debates with Sam Harris and his views on religious belief
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2010/12/letter-to-scott-atran-regarding-his.html

Self-hatred in the "skeptical" community via angry neurotic so-called "feminists"

Here's some additional thoughts of the recent thunerf00t thing and some further digging revealed the following on a conservative wiki site: http://www.conservapedia.com/Richard_Dawkins%27_Elevatorgate_comments Dawkins' comments have been removed from PZ Myers' website but I found the above link.

I'm not a big fan of the wiki site referenced above but at least they've got some documentation about what has occurred in the past. I believe I do share the following key value with anti-authoritarian conservatives expressed by the following phrase: "Go F yourself and stop taking yourself so F'ing seriously." While the ideology test at www.politicalcompass.org shows that I am a left leaning anti-authoritarian, I do find shared value in this phrase that is basically an appropriate response to liberal authoritarians who want us all to be censored and suppressed apparently just as much as the conservative authoritarians do.

Go F yourself and stop taking yourself so F'ing seriously.

The above phrase really is quite useful. It can help us all improve our lives and the lives of others to a great extent. And frankly, the anti-male anti-normal-human-relations type rhetoric which is criticized on the following website also yields this reaction:

http://open.salon.com/blog/jason_m_wester/2011/07/12/rebecca_watsons_misguided_boycott_of_richard_dawkins

And here is a link to the crazed demented drivil from a woman who's got a number of skeptical undies in a bundle: http://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/

But thankfully, in addition to thunderf00t's responses*, here's an appropriate response I found today:

http://encyclopediadramatica.se/index.php?title=Rebecca_Watson&oldid=394926

And a very good video from the above site:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QqU9JFbtucU#!

The phrase "don't sexualize me" by Ms. Watson reminds me of the anti-sex anti-normal-human-relations rhetoric from the book Miracle of Forgiveness, a book that draws a direct link between masturbators and murderers. Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness book was and is used as a virtual bible in Mormonism to teach children to hate their own bodies as they are coming of age.

And similarly, this femist bullshit concept that naked women, or women in general shouldn't be "sexualised?" That sounds like the same abusive anti-human rhetoric I heard as a boy in the Mormon Church. And the response to such a request should be exactly the same as what I should be to the Mormon Church:

Teaching children to hate their own bodies is abusive.

And, so is asking that men & women "de-sexualize" their brains and the natural responses thereof as we open our eyes and look out on the world.

The knee-jerk reactions from some quarters of the "skeptical" community in response to Ms. Watson's pedantic bayings are as follows:

CFI (Center For Inquiry) announces an anti-discrimination policy:

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/news/center_for_inquiry_announces_policy_on_hostile_conduct_harassment_at_confer/

And here's my response to CFI's overreaction:

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/11017/P135/

*Some of thunderf00t's responses:
http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/skepchick-embrace-victim-hood/
http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/2012/07/19/feminist-reduced-to-tears-by-t-shirt/
and more info is at http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/07/thunderf00t-vs-pz-myers-i-vote-for.html

New Balance model 812 shoes: Blisters after only two days

Regarding the new model 812 New Balance shoes: I purchased the supposedly similar 811 model for many years. New Balance did away with the 811 model and has stated many times that their 812 model is a direct replacement. It is not. After only two 14 hours days of wearing a new pair of 812 model shoes I had blisters on the tops of both of my pinky toes. I stopped wearing the 812 model shoes and went back to an older 811 pair I happened to have. I cannot wear the 812 model shoes and will not wear them in the future. Only two 14 hours days of wear resulted in open blisters on my feet. The 811 model shoes never did this – and I have purchased many pairs of 811 shoes.

I called New Balance to report the open blisters on my feet. In response a supervisor called me back. He expressed tonal and verbal irritation that I had made an injury report in the first place. While it's true that New Balance has offered to replace the current pair of 812 shoes, they were also irritated that I called them to report product related injuries.

Left toe images:

 Right toe:

The 812 is not a replacement for the 811. The claims of New Balance in this regard are unfounded and damaging.

Two videos found on feminism - challenging politically correct dogma

Here are two interesting videos I found on feminism:

Cristina Rad on feminism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqPG8Gvu5UU

Feminism and the disposable male:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA

Liberal dogma should be thought about and challenged just as much as conservative dogma is. Dogma is the problem. Maybe the truth will eventually overturn hysterical, frantic, and angry political correctness. Let's hope so.

New Balance 812: blisters after only two days

Regarding the following New Balance shoe: 812 - also known as the MW812 and MW812BK

I bought the supposedly similar 811 model for many years. New Balance did away with the 811 model and stated many times that the 812 was a direct replacement. It is not. After only two 14 hours days of wearing a new pair of 812 shoes I had blisters on the tops of both pinky toes. I went back to an older 811 pair I happened to have. Problem solved, for now. I cannot wear the 812 and will not wear it in the future. Avoid the 812. It is N-O-T a direct replacement for the 811. Beware. Rest in peace 811. We asked for your return, but New Balance has ignored all our requests.

------

An addendum to his article can be found by clicking here.

Atheist conferences and sexual harassment rules

On the CFI forum here I just added the following post:

The workplace harassment classes and policies have made people afraid to engage in normal human relations at work. Extending those hysterical over-the-top fear-based policies to conferences is childish and petty in my view.

We could well draw up a huge list of things prohibited at conferences.

Simply use the following phrase template:

If you do XXXXXX to someone at our conference you will be ejected.

Here's some possible things you can plug into XXXXXX:

1. Showing your underpants to other conference participants.
2. Emitting a particularly smelly fart.
3. Doing more serious things which any reasonable police officer could arrest you for.

Some things REALLY DO go without saying. And saying them increases the amount of negativity in the air - at a conference.

The stuffy workplace is one thing. A conference is another. A conference is supposed to be a social gathering, N-O-T work.

I agree with the general French appraisal that American workplace sexual relation rules are insane. And it's also a bit crazy to have to spend one second putting into the face of conference goers this type of thing.

Go to a bar and expect drunk men to hit on you. End of story.

If you're an a-hole at a conference, maybe you'll be ejected.

Just simplify the policy to be "anti-a-hole." But if we phrased the policy like that I can easily think of one particular biologist who'd be banned immediately. And also so would the crazies who think we need to put into everyone's face this type of verbiage and text in the first place.

Speaking generally: Imposing your fears and insecurities onto other people as a matter of policy really is abusive. Not everyone is as uptight or as fearful as you are.

And no this doesn't apologize for behavior which is ACTUALLY illegal. If something illegal happens, call the cops. But conference organizers aren't our parents, nor are they cops.

The above are general comments based on general trends, and what I've been able to gather so far from the fuss.

My related post: http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/07/thunderf00t-vs-pz-myers-i-vote-for.html

Thunderf00t vs P.Z. Myers: I vote for thunderf00t

Remember the old days on the Internet, when we spent most of our time on Usenet and on certain older listserv's (email discussion groups)? And what of trolls? They certainly still exist.

Anyway a few years ago I discovered the blogs of a guy who has been increasing in prominence within the "atheist" community called P.Z. Myers. His blogs are at two locations apparently:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/
The first one is more longstanding but the second one relates to a more recent spat online.

My long developed evaluation of Myers is that he tends to attempt to use science to justify his ultra-left-wing views. Maybe I share some of those views, but I also think that all of our views should be up for debate. And after reading a lot of Myers' blog posts online over the years and hearing him speak more recently, I've basically come to conclude that the guy is about 30 to 40% interesting and 60 to 70% like an a-hole who acts and talks like he has a big stinky thing up his rear end on a permanent basis.

I know some people like the guy, but to me he's acerbic in a non-useful way. Hitchens was acerbic in useful ways, but Myers often comes off as a petty retard - just my view. Hitchens was acerbic and smart. Myers is acerbic but usually is also often petty and inappropriately hostile. So this was my view before the more recent spat - see below...

Next, I heard about this show called the Magic Sandwich Show, and on that show there's this guy named thunderf00t (AKA Dr. Phil Mason, a chemist) who sometimes was on that show. I took no special interest in the guy other than that he seemed interesting when he spoke.

Next I found the following blog:
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2012/07/pz-myers-apologizes.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FypxUn+%28Debunking+Christianity%29
via looking on http://www.atheistblogs.co.uk/

So what's my reaction to this spat between two somewhat prominent web & video bloggers? I'm not surprised frankly. Dr. Mason (AKA thunerf00t) probably made a mistake to associate with Myers in the first place, because Myers has a long standing tradition of booting off detractors from his own blogs in rather petty ways. This has been going on for years now. So when Dr. Myers' virtual boot hit the virtual bum of Dr. Mason, where's the surprise? There is none. It's par for the course.

I'm all for having a crucible where people can discuss things openly. As long as personal threats are not made, people should be able to debate issues and disagree openly, even vociferously, in public forums - again as long as people can avoid threatening each other or wasting space with spam.

Anyway PZ Myers' actions in this case are par for the course. Thunerf00t AKA Dr. Mason should not have been surprised. He simply got treated the may Myers tends to treat everyone in his little corner of the Net.

There is a certain hysteria in the ivory tower of academics when it comes to hearing views which are critical of the ultra-liberal status quo - speaking and saying this as a liberal myself. Reference the work of Sam Harris & Steven Pinker on this front. Myers is apparently so closely tied to the quick-willingness to pounce on perceived detractors to the hysteria that he's willing to apply the same shallow tactics to people he invites onto his blog as to all the other people he's booted off of his blog over the years now.

So, in this debate I'd tend to stand with thunderf00t (Mason) as well. Mason can start his own blog and he has one. Myers really is part of the "old school" of Internet discussions, where you could routinely get your virtual head cut off for asking an otherwise innocent question. Myers has apparently spent so many years in a virtual sewer (partly of his own making) of Internet discussions that he is apparently unable to act in a non-petty and non-shallow way himself. Spend enough time shoveling crap and eventually you'll start to enjoy the smell. So anyway that's my view on all this. Who was "right" in this recent debate? Thunerf00t, yes. Myers, no. That's my vote.

Here's more videos on the issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G72r6rkSfU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UUmb8hO2ilV9vRa8cilis88A&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6iGBEFMOHU

And related blogs: http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/
http://isgodasquirrel.blogspot.com/2012/06/pz-meyers-finds-bars-of-mass-harassment.html

No one wants to be abused. But I agree with Mason that when we're too vocal about there being a problem when the problem really is relatively small, then that means we're more hung up than needs be and detracting from other issues. We're also using an inappropriately broad brush and painting & tainting otherwise innocent people who really don't need to be treated like children.

If you don't want to be hit on my drunk men don't go to bars. End of story. No more needs to be said, and in my view atheist conference organizers do not need to treat attendeeds like they're guilty until proven innocent, nor like children.

People shouldn't be censored for speaking their mind, or shut down or shut out for saying what they think and feel.

Happy Thanksgiving: what this day and is not about.

Happy Thanksgiving. Today is a day to have fun with your family & to talk with them.

When I was a kid we went to granny's house and had turkey. Now as an adult I go to a sister's house and later to a cousin's of my wife.

Never was this day about apologizing for the sins of people who may or may not have been my ancestors, or who may or may not have shared the same skin color as myself.

Here's some links that came to mind as I read some other blog posts today:

What did the Romans ever do for us? Here's a related sketch from the film Life of Brian by Monty Python:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSELOCMmw4A
The noble savage myth:
http://www.tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectures/documents/pinker00.pdf

The myth that ancient people of all stripes were less violent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk
and http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_chalks_it_up_to_the_blank_slate.html

The bottom line is this: children are not responsible for the sins of their parents or ancestors, and we need not apologize for the misdeeds of others.

There can be shame based religion, and also apparently shame based culture in general.
https://www.google.com/search?q=shame+based+religion
and https://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=19&gs_id=9&xhr=t&q=shame+based+culture

The right wing has shame based religion.

The left wing has shame based politics and culture.

Can't we just move beyond shame based culture/religion and having any concept of original sin or having to apologizing for the "sins" of other people who aren't us?

Everyone is a bit racist, as per Ayaan Hirsi Ali:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08EYqwyns-k

The tribalistic ethos that teaches children to hate & resent others because of misdeeds done in the past sets up fertile ground for an endless cycle of revenge. Which culture in America does this? Is it politically incorrect to say? Maybe the government should provide free health care, free land, and job assistance to groups who were oppressed in the past, but that doesn't mean I personally have any personal responsibility whatsoever for what other people may have done - people who aren't me.

Thank goodness that the in-group morality of humanity is expanding. This is happening because of things like the Internet, TV. film, and ease of travel. All human groups are capable of genocide and of expressing out-group morality. What's most important is to simple be conscious of how human nature works.

You are a native to the country you were born in. All people in the U.S. are the children of immigrants. And given the chance. all groups of humans would screw over the Earth if they were unenlightened. What man who clubbed the last Dodo and what was his tribe & culture?

Keeping cultures in the dark because they are just "so cute" with their little cute beliefs isn't right. The detached defacto atheist academic who views the demon-haunted beliefs of others as "cute" and "worth preserving in totality & isolation" - they are helping to keep their fellow humans in the dark. Maybe having everyone buy into greedy cutthroat social-darwinist (spencerist) capitalism would not be so good. But all children should have the benefit of a proper education which includes science, art, history, math, comparative religion, and so on.

So today I won't be apologizing to anyone but my wife, and even in that case she's pretty easy going. Today is a day to have fun with your family - nothing more.

Atheism & having kids: the right to choose to be a zero

CFI in Portland (child group of Beaverton Atheists) recently hosted the following discussion: "Discussion: Demographics: Should Atheists be trying to have more children?"

I would answer a strong yes. Here's quotes from another blogger who also agrees:

"...Having children consciously, in full awareness of the insanity of the leap you are taking is a revolutionary act. It can be compared to picking up a weapon and walking on to a battle field. Sure, there are far more idiots that are willing to become soldiers, but when an educated individual chooses to take a stand it is very different. One who chooses to fight in full understanding is not a soldier but rather a warrior..."

"...Intelligence is a virtue but is it worthless without bravery. If you have brains and have a sense of what this world needs, then have children. Otherwise you have no one to blame but yourself when you find yourself old and infirm, surrounded by blithering morons."

Relative to overpopulation: There will be a natural curve limiting to exponential growth, and those limits will occur more on the uneducated ends of the curve, not so much in places where highly educated atheists tends to live. Science, technology, and education about both can help to save things.

Relative to whether it's stupid for someone to have 8 or 11 kids: Was it stupid for them to pass on their genes & memes more easily to a wide group of people? Transmitting memes is of value, but there's something about a living breathing human that doesn't quite compare to a book or computer. Their right to choose is the mirror of your right to choose not to. The drunk bums in my own family who were in the end zeros both genetically & memetically - their wasted lives show that sometimes there really is value in doing what comes natural.

There's a certain anti-having-kids ideology from the 1960s and 70s which continues today, and it goes something like this: Because there's overpopulation in third world countries that means I should have no kids myself. It's a false analogy, and it's about the same type of thing as saying that one should eat one's peas because of starving children elsewhere. This ideology robs people of a key part of life: reproduction! Yes that's right, having kids. It's not all about you. Biology & evolution will have the last laugh.

Just because resources are scarce in third world countries doesn't mean you should have kids. Have them, have as many as you want, but teach your kids the value of science and the value of continuing the Enlightenment.

Related links:
A video: Atheist family values: think about legacy, have kids, preserve the garden, don't be a drunk bum.

A related talk at my mother's funeral.

Should Christian women have breasts & vaginas?

Should Christian women have breasts & vaginas? These are a key questions I have been wondering about.

I watched the video "Should Christian women wear bikinis" at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtzIcz7MOkc

Is there a middle ground between porn and berkas? Maybe. But one thing is certain: morality doesn't come from a certain religion.

Here's a related video on that front from Hitchens & Fry on the Catholic Church:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z5Yk8uMdJ8
and more by Sam Harris as he talks about his new book The Moral Landscape
http://www.samharris.org/media/video/

In my first hand experience, shame based religion wants you to forcibly remove and shut down the parts of your brain that deal with sex. And in response to the anti-bikini video by that nut job guy preaching to an audience in the referenced video, the last time I checked men are human. The way a man's brain reacts to a woman in a bikini is not dehumanizing. Shame based ideology destroys people's lives. Similar ideas keep women in bags (berkas).

And lastly a related video of my own:
Mormonsm & oral sex:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9LakWHWZFU

Haven't these people ever heard of having healthy boundaries? No. They get their jollies out of interrogating teenagers about their nascent sexuality. No maybe it's not quite as bad as the child rape that's rampant in Catholicism, but it's on the same playing field in my view.

Tracy Aviary hides away an exotic jay because it likes people

Copy of comments made to fellow bird lovers:

Recently Tracy Aviary (a public bird zoo in Salt Lake City) had a pair of Plush Crested Jays on display (Cyanocorax chrysops). These are exotic crow family birds that do not require a permit to keep or breed in private aviculture in the U.S. One of the birds was more friendly with people.

A few weeks ago I found that the pair had been taken off display. I asked a staff member on site why this was. I was told the following: "The bird was imprinted, and it's not the mission of the Aviary to promote that sort of thing." My own response to a statement like this, when considering the several years that the Aviary had on display Lory parrots  that people could go and feed, and Sun Conures which people now can feed, as well as several other individual birds that were friendly & kept me & others coming back again and again - such a statement shocked me. And also I was taken aback because of my own personal associations with past Aviary curators.

In response I've sent them a few letters. No one at the Aviary has responded.

One additional thing is that on youtube I have observed their head keeper actively searching for videos made by members of the public, people who've made videos of birds at the Aviary. The head keeper tends to then make rather juvenile, snarky, and unprofessional comments about the various videos - while representing herself as being either "Tracy Aviary" or a keeper there.

Regarding the pair, reportedly one of them died and the remaining one is going to bird show, because the head keeper there & maybe more of their staff & leadership don't want to have an "imprinted" bird on display. However, the land and the birds of Tracy Aviary are owned by Salt Lake City. The Aviary is operated by a non-profit, but the birds their staff touch on a daily basis are owned by the public. And the non-profit is funded in whole by money from the public (routed either through direct donations, tax dollars, or money from corporate coffers that also comes from the public).

While it goes without saying among many of us that bird keeping requires a big commitment, having a public zoo take off display birds that like people too much, just because of this & for no other valid reason, that shows that Tracy Aviary may currently be operating in a way which runs counter to the values derived from enlightened private aviculture, which sees high value (including conservation value) in promoting enlightened & responsible first hand interaction between humans and birds.

Well, you're welcome to check out the letters I wrote them. Some of the first ones are rather animated, in part because of a.) the pomposity of the statement made by their on site staff to me in person and b.) the unprofessional and snarky comments that their head keeper makes in online forums on behalf of the Aviary in response to media posted by members of the public (videos about several of the birds at the Aviary made by various people - not just the jays). But my latest letter is a bit more calm.

And it seems that I'm not the only one who discovered the friendly jays at the Aviary, with the more friendly of the two now being hidden away at the Aviary because of an apparent ideology that claims that a bird that likes people is an evil thing that should be hidden & discouraged.

The bird now being kept in some back room at Tracy Aviary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NlNbn-v-SE

My letters:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2011/08/tracy-aviary-anti-to-pet-bird-keeping.html

Here's a link to the City's statement of mission page about the Aviary. Nowhere in the mission statement does it say that "imprinted" birds must be hidden away in a back room because they like people too much.

http://www.slcgov.com/finance/2010budget/BPS/nondept/NonDeptBPSTracyAviary10.pdf

"The mission of the Aviary is to foster caring for the natural world, enriching and transforming lives through connections with birds."

Right now those of us who loved seeing an enchanting pair of exotic plush crested jays at Tracy Aviary - our lives are not being enriched - maybe transformed, but transformed into people who recognize that right now there may be too much of an anti-bird-human-interaction mentality going on at our "public" Aviary that our tax dollars and gate & member fees go to support. I didn't become a member of the Aviary 16 years ago, and I didn't rejoin many times & make many one off donations & give several gift memberships to friends & family for this.

Jonathan
http://corvus.freeshell.org
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/crows/

Tracy Aviary - "anti" to pet bird keeping? - August 19, 2011 letter to Tim Brown

August 19, 2011
   
Tim Brown
Friends of Tracy Aviary
c/o: Tracy Aviary
589 East 1300 South
Salt Lake City, Utah 84105

Hello Mr. Brown,

This is a follow up to my August 7th and 13th letters to the chair of your board of directors.

I have found that Tracy Aviary sits on property owned by the City, and that the property & bird collection there is owned by the City. Also here’s a mission statement for the Aviary I found on the City’s website:

Tracy Aviary operates in partnership with Salt Lake City Corporation wherein the non-profit entity manages the day-to-day operations for Salt Lake City Corporation and the City retains ownership of the assets.  The mission of the Aviary is to foster caring for the natural world, enriching and transforming lives through connections with birds.  In addition, Salt Lake City provides an operating subsidy.

Having your staff walk around the grounds pompously telling long time members like me, that the mission of the Aviary requires that a Plush Crested Jay that “likes people too much” must be hidden away in a back room --- as a citizen here, tax payer, and long time member of the Aviary, I say to you that such actions run counter to the stated mission of the Aviary as from the City’s website.

...foster caring for the natural world, enriching and transforming lives through connections with birds

Nothing more than this. Not a warped ideology of supposed conservation that believes that all first hand interaction between humans and birds should be done on a permit-only basis. Humans are part of the natural world - with a shared common ancestor between us & chimps & bonobos, and a 1 to 5% genetic difference between us and the latter two species. We are animals just as much as are all the other animals on this pale blue dot.

Also I do not see how it is within the scope of the City-mandated mission of the Aviary to have your employees go to participate in online forums, on behalf of the Aviary, in juvenile, childish, and retributive ways (as indicated in my previous letters). I have observed first hand the comments your current head aviculturist as made in online forums, for and on behalf of the Aviary. They have been unprofessional & childish.

The Aviary has come a long way in 16 years. Lots of new exhibits have been built. A back room area that isn’t like the dark ages. But what I and others who visit care most about are the individual birds themselves, not about whether your staff feel that no one should have a pet bird at home, or about whether your staff feel a video of the hornbills has an accurate verbal description of them, or about whether your head keeper has a fawning appreciation for the work of Doug Folland. Who cares. The Aviary should be about the birds, not about having your staff get in the way via one method or another. And certainly not via the alienation process initiated by the actions of your head keeper in this case - perhaps spurred on by your own personal bias against pet bird keeping?

And just to be clear - regarding Plush Crested Jays:
       
    Plush Crested Jays are not endangered.
   
    They are not on a species survival plan (SSP).
   
    They are legal to keep & breed with out a permit.

    There is no difference legally nor with regard to conservation impact, between the keeping of a Quaker parrot, an African Grey parrot, or a Plush Crested Jay.

    Plush Crested Jays are not listed on the U.S. Migratory Bird Treaty Act.

So, I strongly object as noted to the double standard here taken here. You may as well also hide away in a back room all of the Sun Conures next, and several of the ducks & geese.

I have visited zoos around the world, and outside of Utah I’ve lived in Oregon & Texas. Zoos visited include: Oregon Zoo, London Zoo, San Antonio Zoo, zoos in China & Ukraine, the National Zoo in D.C., and so on. The things that made all these zoos special were the individual birds there and how they expressed and showed their own intelligence, grace, and unique personalities. The staff at these other zoos weren’t walking around the grounds pontificating about how birds and humans must be kept separate. And their staff weren’t going online so as to have negative and childish interactions with members of the public in the name of these zoos.

I know that statements from your staff on these issues don’t come out of a vacuum. They may be resulting from directives from yourself & the other leadership team of the Friends of Tracy Aviary. So if there is an anti-pet-bird mentality there that is so fearful of an exotic jay actually liking people, this needs to change.

It goes without saying that having an exotic corvid at home requires a huge commitment. The cost of entry for an African Pied Crow is now approaching $2,000. And a pair of Plush Crested Jays may go for $1,400. In my view it’s a good thing that these birds cost as much as they do. And if in the future a way could be found to legalize native corvids, perhaps in a similar manner to how native raptors are legal within falconry, that would be good.

And, my own reactions to your leadership on this issue were highly justified, because of what I saw as a breach of trust by your staff & indirectly by your management team. Passive aggression on the part of your staff, via hiding away a pair or one bird that “liked people too much,” and because “it’s not the mission of the aviary to have imprinted birds on display.”

Yes it is, in part, and with care.

Use of words like “imprinted” in this case by your staff are rather inappropriate, bigoted, and counterproductive though. The term negates the fact that a.) humans are animals too, and b.) it’s the mission of the Aviary to enrich and transform lives through connections with birds, and c.) it implies that there’s something inherently evil about a bird actually liking a human, and d.) indicative of an anti-pet-bird ideology that really is counter productive and directly goes against the mission of the Aviary. You don’t have to highly promote pet bird keeping. You can teach about how to do it responsibly. But don’t treat an “imprinted” exotic non-endangered jay the same way you would a highly endangered SSP participant bird that really should not be kept as a pet - Plush Crested Jays are not SSP birds.

Tracy Aviary has been and should continue to be a place for people who love birds. Nothing more. The extra stuff, such as an advocacy for conservation will come naturally. But micro-managing individual birds, especially exotic non-threatened ones that are legal without a permit in private aviculture, in a vindictive and petty way - that really is counter productive. And such actions will prompt people like me who have had ties to the wider avicultural world for a lot longer than most of your staff have been adults, well it will prompt me to make note of how things have gone down hill there to fellow aviculturists around the world.

Sincerely,

Jonathan

Tracy Aviary: Hypocritical Animal Hoarders

As a follow up to the post here.

To: Tom Barton, Chair
Board of Directors
Tracy Aviary
Salt Lake City, Utah

August 13, 2011

Greetings Mr. Barton,
       
No response has been received to the August 7th letter I sent.

I am highly concerned that head Aviary keeper Jennifer Evans is treating the Aviary as if it’s her own private zoo. Hiding birds away that are “too friendly,” and driving long time members like me away as a result.

Additionally Ms. Evans has a rather unfortunate habit of going online and making petty & shallow comments, in the name of, and on behalf of, Tracy Aviary. Is Ms. Evans the new executive director there?

In response, I have some questions for you:

Are employees of the Aviary employees of Salt Lake City, or are they employees of a non-profit organization registered with the State?

The actions of Ms. Evans pale in comparison to the work of past curators there, when there was a sense of professionalism, respect for the public, and appreciation for the value of allowing individual birds to be how they are - even if they happen to like human beings and to not punish the birds for this trait. And also respect for where the money comes from to make the Aviary possible.

Having your current head keeper treating the Aviary as if it’s her own private zoo, and having her going online, representing the Aviary as she does so (and stating as much), and making comments for and on behalf of the Aviary in all the places where this can be done nowadays - is this acceptable behavior?

Is this appropriate Mr. Barton? Is the Aviary a department of the City? Just how much of my tax dollars go to support the Aviary? And as a participant in the local economy, how much corporate profits garnered from the public here also go to support the Aviary?

Aside from the donations I’ve personally made over the years, how much tax money and how much corporate profits which result from the community here are resulting in your staff being able to treat the Aviary and the birds there as if they are their pets, while at the same time being overly concerned if given individual birds exhibit the apparently abhorrent trait of actually liking a human.       
       
By allowing your Jennifer Evans to be the defacto representative of the Aviary in all online discussions and forums, you are, with all due respect, cutting off the nose of the Aviary despite it’s face. Petty, shallow, and juvenile comments from Ms. Evans in online forums, forums where she states that she is writing on behalf of the Aviary - this is absurd!
               
I don’t pay taxes to the City, County & State, and I don’t make donations to the Aviary, so that you can have a rogue head keeper who acts in such a juvenile manner online.

No other zoo that I have known does this. Their employees don’t go online and seek to make comments & to participate, in the name of those institutions, and to respond to whatever social media related comments people may have made about a given zoo. And when I think about my own associations with Grenville Roles, and with the other curators who came after him, and when I think about all the friendly people I’ve met at the Aviary over the years in the front booth and in the back, the rather petty actions of your current head keeper really are hurting the Aviary and it’s mission: unless your mission is now to pretend like a bird cannot like a human. They can. They do. There’s ones at my home that prove this every day.

In this case, the harmless actions of a little birdie, a bird that delighted visitors and kept them coming back, has been turned into a large problem by a misguided, fearful, and zealous anti-visitor anti-bird-human-interaction type of ideology, where the littlest glimpse of a bird liking a person results in the affected bird being hidden away in the back.

Hypocritical animal hoarders with their own private zoo. Is this what the Aviary, my Aviary, has become?

Sincerely,

Jonathan

Tracy Aviary: Plush Crested Jay "likes people too much?" And that's a bad thing?

Copy of letter sent:

August 7, 2011

Tom Barton, Chair
Board of Directors
Tracy Aviary
589 East 1300 South
Salt Lake City, Utah 84105

Greetings Mr. Barton,

I have been going to the Aviary on a very regular basis since 1994, and on a less frequent basis since about 1970.

When former curator Grenville Roles was at the Aviary I had frequent contact with him, and I have some of his art in my home. I understand that Grenville played a key role in the Aviary’s initial admittance into the A.Z.A., and he’s now moved on to Disney in Florida.

I am writing to you about a concern I have about what appears to be a new approach at the Aviary, which has perhaps resulted from the fact that at present the Aviary is largely staffed by a whole host of new college graduates. The new approach at the Aviary is typified by the following two words:  sanctimony and pretension.

Here is a specific example:

For several years the Aviary had on display an enchanting pair of Plush Crested Jays (Cyanocorax chrysops). These birds are not native to the U.S., and thus are legal to keep & breed in private aviculture.
       
The pair was in the old pavilion. And when the pavilion was redone they were placed in the rear enclosure.

The pair was particularly enchanting.

Recently I found that the female had died, and that the male had been moved off exhibit. Today I enquired why this was. Here is what I was told: “because the bird was getting too friendly with people, and that is not the sort of thing the Aviary wants to promote.”

Excuse me, Mr. Barton? Not the sort of the thing the Aviary wants to promote?

Can I get a refund for the past 16 years of membership dues, and for all the gift memberships I’ve donated to friends & family? How about a refund for all the Aviary-provided duck food I’ve purchased and fed to the ducks since 1994? And also for all the one-off individual donations I’ve made?

One key reason people come to the Aviary is because there are enchanting birds there who like people!

What about the Lory Parrots?

What about the Sun Conures?
           
What about the ducks & geese?

All of these classes of birds were “welcome” to interact and be friendly with people.

But when it was discovered, by your rather pretentious, myopic, and sanctimonious head keeper, that one of the Plush Crested Jays also liked people - that was too much for her. The bird had to be moved off exhibit.

But, Mr. Barton, as a long time member of the Aviary, and as someone who’s donated thousands of dollars to the Aviary, it just so happens that I get to have a say in what goes on there.
   
When an exotic and non-native bird in the form of a Lory Parrot gets to be friendly with people who come to the Aviary - when this happens, it’s a good thing, because people are drawn to the Aviary, and because when a person sees how a bird can be friendly and not just a lump that sits on a branch and does nothing - when people have first hand interaction with a bird, it bennefits conservation.

When an exotic and non-native bird in the form of a Sun Conure enchants children and adults at the Aviary, a similar result happens.

And, yes, Mr. Barton, when an exotic and non-native bird in the form of a Plush Crested Jay enchants and delights people, they are drawn to come back. They pay money to donate gift memberships, and they even donate several times outside of their regular membership payments.

The Aviary staff really needs to be careful about what they say to members of the public & the tone they take. We’re the ones who pay the bills.
       
Before I had a parrot at home I took zero interest in the birds outside. But now I care about what they do, how they are doing, and about their welfare. Birds at the Aviary who like people are your key asset. Don’t pretend they don’t exist. Don’t hunt them down as on a witch hunt. You should be doing the opposite and realize that a friendly bird will cause people like me to donate, again, and again, and again, for several years.

Enlightened Private Aviculture plays a key role in conservation. Public zoos can’t and won’t do it all. Bird lovers come to the Aviary because you have birds there, and when you have a bird there who likes people, that makes us want to come more.

As a long time member and donor of thousands of dollars to the Aviary I request the following:

1. That the Plush Crested Jay currently off exhibit be placed back on exhibit in exactly the same place he was at before.       

2. That a new mate for the jay be obtained.

3. That the Aviary staff be told to be careful about how they present themselves in public, when speaking to the public - because it’s the public that pays the bills and makes their paychecks possible. It’s our money that made the A.Z.A. enrollments and recertifications possible. It’s our money and our love of the birds at the Aviary that made the new exhibits possible.

Oh, and by the way, you’re welcome to call up Grenville Roles at Disney and he can tell you about birds there who also like people. They don’t hide them away.

It’s rather hypocritical for your keepers to go around essentially developing relationships with the birds they care for on a daily basis while at the same time trying to zealously keep members of the public (who pay the bills) from doing the same, on a small, occasional, and small time basis. In subtle ways that don’t go over the top, but in ways that keep us coming back. This was the situation with the Plush Crested Jays. I could name similar birds I’ve noticed since 1994. But I’m reluctant to do so because of the witch hunt which may ensue, in case your current head keeper discovers that there are other birds at the Aviary who commit the crime of actually paying attention to and liking a human being.
 
Sincerely,

Jonathan


---------------------------- end of letter

African Pied Crows and White Necked Ravens are legal without a permit in private aviculture in the USA. So are Plush Crested Jays. Here's one page that has these types of birds for sale, and another, and another, and another. It goes without saying that keeping such a bird, and keeping it happy, requires a lot of work (as with a parrot). And here's a related discussion list.

More info on enlightened private aviculture is here.

The Retardianism (Possibilianism) of David Eagleman

Straight from the mind of lame neologism syndrome (LNS) afflicted David Eagleman, comes a nifty new term which he was just so pleased to have enter the nerdgastic-retardian lexicon: possibilianism. Oh my, do you think you have what it takes to be an Eagleman-brand possibilian?

Here's the basic premise of the term:

Explore. Learn. Seek. But never be intellectually honest about conclusions or levels of probability about outcomes.

Yes, my friend, reach, reach, reach for the stars. Glory in the wondrous beauty of it all. But, simultaneously keep your head in the sand, and silent about what the real facts are, and what the true history is of science and religion.

We get this kind of thing all the time from people who have zero experience with real hard core religion. David Eagleman was raised a secular Jew. So basically the guy never spent one way in anything approaching a religion with actual hard core literal beliefs in an alien god creature, or in a god who sends you to hell, or to some gradation of heaven depending on how many brownie points you rack up either by kissing His ass, or by doing His bidding here.

In Eagleman's talk here, he talks about how the creation myths of various religions can be like points in the sky. Oh, and boy howdy, we get to look up at the sky of "possibilities," and wonder with great awe about which one just might be correct. Oh, and he says the most important words in science are "I don't know."

But these claims of his are all bogus because:

1. We do know. And we only know because humans have developed to a point where they've finally happened across the most effective means of separating fact from fiction: science & the scientific method. So, we DO know. We can know. We will know. But ONLY because we have only very recently discovered that SCIENCE is the best method humans have developed thus far to separate fact from fiction.

2. Not all myths have an equal change of being true (an equal probability level of being accurate). Do you think the creation myth of the Amerindians, of the Catholics, of the Mormons, of Islam, of the ancient Greeks, and of all the other religions & cultures, - that all these different stories about how we & the Universe came into existence - that all these have the exact same probability level of being true? No. You don't believe them all. And to claim that all have the same chance (possibility) of being true is not only absurd, it feels like a purposeful lie.

3. Science (and atheism) are different BECAUSE we're willing to accept new facts about existence, if they are shown to be accurate through reasonably verifiable or cogent explanations, explanations that match up with observations and with cogent mathematical and scientific theory. Regions are either NOT willing, or they are VERY RELUCTANT, to accept new facts about existence. And when they do partially accept the new clearly evident facts they tent to warp their acceptance so as to fit the facts into their own narrative about existence (so they can keep saying "yes my god did that," even though the ever growing pile of evidence shows that their supposed god had little if anything to do with creation or anything).

Is your belief falsifiable? Can you state what it would take for you to change your mind? A committed theist will usually always say no. Committed atheists & honest scientists will usually say yes.

4. Not all definitions of the word god are the same - in fact none of the definitions are are. The word is therefore largely a lie every time someone says "I believe in the same god you do." Oh yes? Is the Mormon alien god from Kolob who literally had sex with Mary with Mother of Jesus the same being who caused the virgin birth of Jesus (a concept popular with Catholics)? No. Is a personal theistic god who fiddles constantly with Creation the same as a deistic one who never does? No. Are people who say "god is the Universe" or "god is sex" or "god is love" - do these people believe in the same god as those who believe in a god who sends people to hell or who cares about how, when, where, and with whom you have sex? No. So the term itself is dishonest, unless those who use it are willing to define what you mean when you use it.

Einstein's God is not your god, not if you're a regular church goer and you believe your god cares about whether your children masturbate or whether your neighbor's smoke. And not even if you believe your god is some intelligent creature somewhere out there, or a giant multiverse-existing termite who spits universes out of her bum - even that god is probably not Einstein's God.

It's retarded to come up with a new word (possibilian) that is dishonest on it's premise.

Atheists believe in possibilities as much as anyone. If theism were true. If your alien god existed. We'd happily or unhappily admit it. We'd be honest and admit it, if there were any reasonable evidence.

We will freely state what it will take for us to change our mind.

The same cannot be said of the committed theist.

And THAT is one key difference between atheism and theism, and the difference between our view and that of Eagleman's bogus disingenuous "possibilianism," that claims "we cannot know."

We can know. We do know. We will know. And we'll only know because of the hard work of scientists. Not because a charismatic charlatan decided he could a.) create an Evil Santa Claus God from Kolob who micromanages the sex lives of all adults & their children, and b.) simultaneously sleep with any woman he wanted (women still married to other men) and with 14 year olds.

By Jonathan

Ayn Rand: idiot darling of the libertarian right

Today I watched Ayn Rand being interviewed, as follows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ukJiBZ8_4k

Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzGFytGBDN8

It's painful to listen to the lady: the person who brought us Alan Greenspan and the latest looting of the national treasury by thieves.

Here's some key responses:

Her point: Morals should only come from logic.

My response: Morals come from a combination of biology, genetics, and socialization. Her ideas on the issue are rather myopic and primitive.

Her point: We shouldn't care about or serve others, but rather only value them by whatever inherent value they happen to have.

My response: Usually only sociopaths have no interest in serving others or caring about the welfare of others, oh, and rich pig republicans also.

I can see why she's a darling of the right. And for the Jesus freak hordes who're part of the tea bagging community, you may as well realize that the leaders of your movement, of the movement, at Fox news, and in the circles of power for the right wing, these leaders view your faith in Jesus in a highly cynical way. They play you like pawns and chumps.

Rand was an atheist and so am I. But we've come a fair distance from the days when people thought that the best practice of all humanity was to act in a completely logical manner. It's not so much about atheism as it is about comprehension of what human nature is. Her views were warped and myopic.

Humans are emotional animals, emotional beings, with a chorus of needs that culminate, through genetics, biology, and socialization into a general consensus of what we tend to value.

It's both fascinating & disconcerting to hear the lady first hand, and to realize how her views tie directly into the recently raping of everyone in the U.S. by Wall Street bankers.

Here's a quote from Rand: "the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." - from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_rand#Philosophy

My response: Well, partly right and partly wrong. No human has reason as an absolute, not even those who claim they do. Happiness comes from a combination of things including doing what you feel inclined to do balanced with service to others. Doing what you feel as engrained in you by biology and genetics, doing what you feel is right based on socialization, serving others (in part because we have a lust to do so, as per Dawkins, and so on).

Basically Rand is the love bunny of today's libertarians, the people who'd have us turn mountain tops and national parks over to rich snobs, and who'd do away with all tax funded social programs. Basically libertarians are fundamentalist-social-Darwinists, even though some of them also ironically reject evolution as a fact. They advocate very fervently for their views, in a highly religious type of way, that the highest moral premise is selfishness and to let everyone else burn. The rich man should live on the mountain top and the national park, because he's rich and he deserves to live there, so they would say.

Since liberals and conservatives have such a hard time understanding each other, maybe there's some genetic basis as to whether one turns out to be someone who sees value in caring for your fellow man or not. Those who would rather see the old and young die rather than have key social programs in place, such people deserve the medicine they shell out. Being a human requires a social contract, and those who break the contract don't deserve the fruits of it.

It's funny and sad to hear those, for example, complain about Obama-care or having Canadian or UK style health care, while at the same time just loving their own Medicare and so on. Old fart idiot hypocrites who're fooled by the cynical likes of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck - three incredibly selfish and mean children who have no place in civil society, and the fruits of libertarianism today.

After listening to the lady I felt like a bit of a rant.

Further reading:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ayn-rands-adult-onset-adolescence/2011/04/21/AFv2JyKE_story.html

http://www0.epinions.com/review/Introduction_to_Objectivist_Epistemology_by_Ayn_Rand/book-review-30E2-EB75595-398D1CBA-prod1

http://hallofidiots.blogspot.com/2009/02/ayn-rand.html

http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/wealthcare-0

http://www.opednews.com/articles/America-s-Revolution-prove-by-Bob-Johnson-110421-913.html

And some more recent views on morality:

Sam Harris & the Moral Landscape: http://www.samharris.org/media/video/

Dawkins, and the lust to be altruistic (to be kind to others - something Rand thought was offensive):

http://books.google.com/books?id=yq1xDpicghkC&pg=PA253&dq=dawkins+sexual+lust&hl=en&ei=HS3bTadMkpqwA8671a4O&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Michael Moore is not the keeper of my soul - re the killing of Osama

Here's what Michael Moore claims: America ‘Lost Something Of Our Soul’ In Killing Osama Bin Laden.


Here's my response:

Ok so here’s a related article by Christopher Hitchens which is critical of Moore over 9/11:
http://www.slate.com/id/2102723/

And here's my view of Moore: He's an idiot. Admittedly he’s an idiot who I have sometimes enjoyed watching, but still, his recent ruminations on CNN about Osama show that the ultra left in the US has largely becoming an apologist for theocratic human spirit destroying gender apartheid advocating Islam. I don’t much like the ultra right either (which is what all the leading figures in the repiglican party are nowadays).

I’ll just float out in the middle away from all the nut jobs.

Moore isn’t the keeper of my soul.

And another related post:
http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/15823/

The position of Harris, Hitchens, and people like Pat Condell and myself are all similar: We’ve been in the “left” camp ourselves, but we have found ourselves pushed away from it by crap talk such as comes from the likes of Moore, Amy Goodman, and Noam Chomsky. But I’ll stay out of the nutjob Ron Paul / John Birch Society as well if it’s all the same to you though.

On a related note, here's good responses to the killing of Osama from Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/mon-may-2-2011-philip-k--howard
http://www.colbertnation.com/full-episodes/mon-may-2-2011-francis-fukuyama

And more from Harris:
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/our-dead-enemy-still-has-friends/
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/osama-bin-laden-1957-2011/

And a new related article from Hitchens on Osama:
http://www.slate.com/id/2292687/