Related post:
Mormons, Exmormons, "post-mormons," and the "need" to control the speech of others and to "mother" people.
Showing posts with label postmormon. Show all posts
Showing posts with label postmormon. Show all posts
Wednesday, June 19, 2013
Official announcement: I'm now an ex-post-Mormon and maybe an ex-ex-Mormon also
Related post:
Mormons, Exmormons, "post-mormons," and the "need" to control the speech of others and to "mother" people.
Tuesday, June 18, 2013
Mormons, Exmormons, "post-mormons," and the "need" to control the speech of others and to "mother" people.
In Mormonism they tried to control our thoughts & our speech. So, upon leaving Mormonism I've found high value in opposite actions to these, and in fighting against people who are too controlling. I don't go on the net to be anyone's child per se. I've been here since 1994, and I wasn't born yesterday. Perhaps you cater to those who were, but there's been too much water under the bridge for me to kowtow to anyone.
Some exmormon websites do have forums with a very limited scope. Such controlling & micromanaging groups cater to exmos (people who've left Mormonism) who've just been out of the Mormon Church for perhaps one or two weeks - and that's all. Once you've become more psychologically adult, more than a "2 week exmo," you'll find such controlling forums infantile & incredible myopic.
Once you've exposed yourself to the writings, speeches, and debates of people who don't speak at Mormon General Conference (eg: Enlightenment Values speakers & thinkers), you will find controlling personalities to be even more distasteful.
Hey you, controlling forum admin: We don't exist to serve or exist at the pleasure of yourself or people who get angry at an open expression of ideas. People who want us to shut up - whether those people are Mormons, or control freak exmormons like you - no, you won't control what we say & think.
So to the mothering admin who tries to maintain "harmony" via suppressing a highly valuable crucible of ideas, here's my message to you: I stand by my videos and links, and the opinions expressed therein. People exposed to authoritarian culture can be authoritarian too - even in their desire to ensure that no one is ever offended.
For example: Carefully read over the restrictions at http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,45 - the forum rules for people who are just leaving Mormonism. It's a largely highly disgusting list of what's not allowed in their little forum:
Item 1 may be ok, as along as the term "personal attack" is construed to mean that we should generally not tell people to "FOAD," and as long as we aren't, again generally speaking, telling people to "shut up." I generally won't advocate that you shut up, unless such a demand is warranted, such as in cases of people who go around destroying the lives of children, people such as Boyd Packer or Spencer Kimball.
Item 2 on their list is evil. For example: Utah is still a theocracy in some respects, and especially outside of Salt Lake City itself. So, "policitcs" does relate to the state of being an ex-mormon. Also politics is about life and what leaders may choose to try & do with yours. So in any case such a restiction is not only myopic, it's abusive.
Item 3 may be ok, but advocating strongly for your position could be interpreted as "preaching," and again, we don't exist to serve at the pleasure of control freak forum admins or of people who cannot handle open discussion & debate. In general "trolls" should be allowed, because they can be Mormons or fundie Christians who simply need more exposure to atheists.
Item 4 is also a perniciously evil request to make of a former Mormon. Hey, we ARE here to "stir up trouble!" We left Mormonism! That stirs up trouble for Mormon leaders! And we're also here to "stir up trouble" with people who want to control the speech & thoughts of others. Yes, this means you micromanaging forum admin at exmormon.org, and your kin on other sites. Item 4 is an OUTRAGEOUSLY ABUSIVE request.
Go read the works of Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris. Are they "stirring up trouble?" Damn right they are! No, you're not going to shut us up.
Item 5 is a stupid thing to worry about. Who cares.
Item 6 shows what we have here is exmormons behaving EXACTLY like Mormon leaders.
Item 7 shows that the admins are very afraid of having their abusive micro-managing ways questioned in public.
Item 8 -same as item 6.
Item 10 - who cares
Item 11 - who cares
Item 12 - we don't exist to serve or speak or live at the pleasure of micro-managing forum admins. Now, there's a difference between telling people to stop directly attacking each other (eg: telling people to stop saying "f-off" or "shut up" to each other), and telling people to "stop talking about a given topic." Do you know the difference, forum admin? "Stop talking about a given topic" means an order to stop thinking, to stop the crubicle from doing it's work. And, forum admins seem quite adept at shelling out their own personal attacks while shielding themselves in their own propped up self importance and access to instruments of control. More on that below.
Item 13 - who cares
Item 14 - freedom of speech & thought may be illegal in North Korea, and in even in some places where the Internet now reaches.
So, what's the bottom line specifically about the forums at exmormon.org? It's a site that can be useful to help you leave Mormonism initially, and it's useful for most people during the first week they're out - but that's it! There is on there some separate good informational articles about Mormonism, but avoid the forums like the plague. Go out and find yourself a good old fashioned atheist forum or group. Seriously. Generally speaking groups with balls enough to actually use the term "atheist" in their group name will have people who're more psychologically adult, more intelligent, more willing to have pointed discussions & debates, and, generally speaking, be less controlling of free speech & thought.
Who are my heros, as a former Mormon Temple Worker, Sunday School President, and Mormon missionary?
To the control freak "exmo" or "postmo" admins, listen to these people! Do they "stir up trouble?" Do they "question the admins?" Do they even bother to care about whether their speech "offends others?" Well on that last point yes they do, but they aren't afraid to nevertheless make judgements about others when they feel such actions are warranted. Judgements about religion. Judgements about religious leaders, or political leaders who act in in similar controlling ways. Judgements about otherwise slimy behavior.
Ideally I believe life is not so much about whether we offend others, it's about speaking the truth. We only have so much time on this rock to make a difference. For what it's worth, here's a copy of my the talk I gave at my mother's funeral, given inside a Mormon meeting house:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2010/12/funeral-talk-that-i-gave-in-february.html
And here's some related videos:
Richard Dawkins on being offended:
Stephen Fry:
Chrisopher Hitchens on the importance of having freedom of expression including the license of offend:
To control freak hippies who want to impose "harmony" by quelling freedom of thought & speech:
The 60s was your great experiment. The 70s was the hangover result. When I left Mormonism I didn't loose my ability to evaluate the behavior of others. Yes there are moral judgements worth dropping which are popular in Mormonism. Prohibitions against premarital sex & masturbation. Prohibitions against coffee, tea, and the moderate consumption of alcohol. But, there are some "generally universal human morals," and I'm less willing to drop these as a human who happens to also be a former Mormon.
No, becoming and "postmo," an "exmo," an atheist, or continuing to be a human doesn't mean that I loose my ability to judge the actions of others.
It's not my goal to show how accepting I am. I care more about the facts, the truth, and yes even how I get to advocate for my own position. I care more about long term survival than your "feewings."
Not every path in life is an equally valid one. If you disagree with my approach or think it's inappropriate, I welcome your direct feedback (as long as your feedback is not "shut up," or nicely-put versions of such a demand).
After leaving Mormonism I did try out a few "hippie culture" groups. Nudists. Groups which advocate more sexual openness. In the end I found serious problems with such groups. A fear of being human (nudist leaders), and strange controlling whackjobs (polyamorists). Their leaders were either hypocritical harmony-imposing-two-faced-deceptive-control-freaks or just strange.
I found going all the other way culturally and socially was not a good option. There's a reason the 70s were a hangover from the activities of the 60s. There's elements of 60s culture worth embracing, but the 1970s shows we can go too far with letting it all hang out.
Ok, so, here's a demand I received from one forum admin," on their super secret facebook page for the group SLC Postmos. The same group also exists on meetup.
My history with Mormonism:
http://corvus.freeshell.org/corvus_corax/two/life_path/life_path.htm
Some exmormon websites do have forums with a very limited scope. Such controlling & micromanaging groups cater to exmos (people who've left Mormonism) who've just been out of the Mormon Church for perhaps one or two weeks - and that's all. Once you've become more psychologically adult, more than a "2 week exmo," you'll find such controlling forums infantile & incredible myopic.
Once you've exposed yourself to the writings, speeches, and debates of people who don't speak at Mormon General Conference (eg: Enlightenment Values speakers & thinkers), you will find controlling personalities to be even more distasteful.
Hey you, controlling forum admin: We don't exist to serve or exist at the pleasure of yourself or people who get angry at an open expression of ideas. People who want us to shut up - whether those people are Mormons, or control freak exmormons like you - no, you won't control what we say & think.
So to the mothering admin who tries to maintain "harmony" via suppressing a highly valuable crucible of ideas, here's my message to you: I stand by my videos and links, and the opinions expressed therein. People exposed to authoritarian culture can be authoritarian too - even in their desire to ensure that no one is ever offended.
For example: Carefully read over the restrictions at http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,45 - the forum rules for people who are just leaving Mormonism. It's a largely highly disgusting list of what's not allowed in their little forum:
1. personal attacks---quote ends
2. politics (terrorism, party politics, foreign policy etc)
3. preaching
4. attempts to deliberately stir up trouble
5. faking a conversation by answering your own posts under different names (puppeteering)
6. complaints about censorship (ironic, ain't it)
7. questions for the admins (send those to ExMoLight@gmail.com instead)
8. complaints about the admins (ditto)
9. advertising and solicitations for money
10. legal issues not cleared in ADVANCE through admin
11. copyrighted material
12. posts about a topic that the moderators have said to drop
13. anything that collects personal information, requests for signatures on petitions or links to petitions, interview requests not cleared IN ADVANCE with admin. Requests for people to contact you off board.
14. anything illegal.
The above list is not exhaustive.
Item 1 may be ok, as along as the term "personal attack" is construed to mean that we should generally not tell people to "FOAD," and as long as we aren't, again generally speaking, telling people to "shut up." I generally won't advocate that you shut up, unless such a demand is warranted, such as in cases of people who go around destroying the lives of children, people such as Boyd Packer or Spencer Kimball.
Item 2 on their list is evil. For example: Utah is still a theocracy in some respects, and especially outside of Salt Lake City itself. So, "policitcs" does relate to the state of being an ex-mormon. Also politics is about life and what leaders may choose to try & do with yours. So in any case such a restiction is not only myopic, it's abusive.
Item 3 may be ok, but advocating strongly for your position could be interpreted as "preaching," and again, we don't exist to serve at the pleasure of control freak forum admins or of people who cannot handle open discussion & debate. In general "trolls" should be allowed, because they can be Mormons or fundie Christians who simply need more exposure to atheists.
Item 4 is also a perniciously evil request to make of a former Mormon. Hey, we ARE here to "stir up trouble!" We left Mormonism! That stirs up trouble for Mormon leaders! And we're also here to "stir up trouble" with people who want to control the speech & thoughts of others. Yes, this means you micromanaging forum admin at exmormon.org, and your kin on other sites. Item 4 is an OUTRAGEOUSLY ABUSIVE request.
Go read the works of Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris. Are they "stirring up trouble?" Damn right they are! No, you're not going to shut us up.
Item 5 is a stupid thing to worry about. Who cares.
Item 6 shows what we have here is exmormons behaving EXACTLY like Mormon leaders.
Item 7 shows that the admins are very afraid of having their abusive micro-managing ways questioned in public.
Item 8 -same as item 6.
Item 10 - who cares
Item 11 - who cares
Item 12 - we don't exist to serve or speak or live at the pleasure of micro-managing forum admins. Now, there's a difference between telling people to stop directly attacking each other (eg: telling people to stop saying "f-off" or "shut up" to each other), and telling people to "stop talking about a given topic." Do you know the difference, forum admin? "Stop talking about a given topic" means an order to stop thinking, to stop the crubicle from doing it's work. And, forum admins seem quite adept at shelling out their own personal attacks while shielding themselves in their own propped up self importance and access to instruments of control. More on that below.
Item 13 - who cares
Item 14 - freedom of speech & thought may be illegal in North Korea, and in even in some places where the Internet now reaches.
So, what's the bottom line specifically about the forums at exmormon.org? It's a site that can be useful to help you leave Mormonism initially, and it's useful for most people during the first week they're out - but that's it! There is on there some separate good informational articles about Mormonism, but avoid the forums like the plague. Go out and find yourself a good old fashioned atheist forum or group. Seriously. Generally speaking groups with balls enough to actually use the term "atheist" in their group name will have people who're more psychologically adult, more intelligent, more willing to have pointed discussions & debates, and, generally speaking, be less controlling of free speech & thought.
Who are my heros, as a former Mormon Temple Worker, Sunday School President, and Mormon missionary?
Christopher Hitchens.Google all these people to hear & read their thoughts & words.
Richard Dawkins.
Daniel Dennett.
Stephen Pinker.
Sam Harris.
Carl Sagan.
To the control freak "exmo" or "postmo" admins, listen to these people! Do they "stir up trouble?" Do they "question the admins?" Do they even bother to care about whether their speech "offends others?" Well on that last point yes they do, but they aren't afraid to nevertheless make judgements about others when they feel such actions are warranted. Judgements about religion. Judgements about religious leaders, or political leaders who act in in similar controlling ways. Judgements about otherwise slimy behavior.
Ideally I believe life is not so much about whether we offend others, it's about speaking the truth. We only have so much time on this rock to make a difference. For what it's worth, here's a copy of my the talk I gave at my mother's funeral, given inside a Mormon meeting house:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2010/12/funeral-talk-that-i-gave-in-february.html
And here's some related videos:
Richard Dawkins on being offended:
Stephen Fry:
Chrisopher Hitchens on the importance of having freedom of expression including the license of offend:
To control freak hippies who want to impose "harmony" by quelling freedom of thought & speech:
The 60s was your great experiment. The 70s was the hangover result. When I left Mormonism I didn't loose my ability to evaluate the behavior of others. Yes there are moral judgements worth dropping which are popular in Mormonism. Prohibitions against premarital sex & masturbation. Prohibitions against coffee, tea, and the moderate consumption of alcohol. But, there are some "generally universal human morals," and I'm less willing to drop these as a human who happens to also be a former Mormon.
No, becoming and "postmo," an "exmo," an atheist, or continuing to be a human doesn't mean that I loose my ability to judge the actions of others.
It's not my goal to show how accepting I am. I care more about the facts, the truth, and yes even how I get to advocate for my own position. I care more about long term survival than your "feewings."
Not every path in life is an equally valid one. If you disagree with my approach or think it's inappropriate, I welcome your direct feedback (as long as your feedback is not "shut up," or nicely-put versions of such a demand).
After leaving Mormonism I did try out a few "hippie culture" groups. Nudists. Groups which advocate more sexual openness. In the end I found serious problems with such groups. A fear of being human (nudist leaders), and strange controlling whackjobs (polyamorists). Their leaders were either hypocritical harmony-imposing-two-faced-deceptive-control-freaks or just strange.
I found going all the other way culturally and socially was not a good option. There's a reason the 70s were a hangover from the activities of the 60s. There's elements of 60s culture worth embracing, but the 1970s shows we can go too far with letting it all hang out.
Ok, so, here's a demand I received from one forum admin," on their super secret facebook page for the group SLC Postmos. The same group also exists on meetup.
Jonathan you wanted input about why people felt there were not enough kid friendly events. You received plenty of offers to them. You brought beefs with other groups on her and you posted blogs and videos meant to insult others. You may not have said those things on this page but you posted links to places that did. Yes name calling is not good here but you need to stop as well. As admin I suggest we drop this thread.And here is my video response:
My history with Mormonism:
http://corvus.freeshell.org/corvus_corax/two/life_path/life_path.htm
Friday, February 1, 2013
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