My Journey to Conservatism

The Aristotelian-Ptolemaic model of the universe ended up being wrong:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model

Galileo helped correct as did others.

Newton wasn't wrong, but his concepts didn't include Relativity nor Quantum Mechanics nor  Quantum field theory.

Jeffersonian Deism's clockwork universe with a Supreme Architect was the most reasonable one at the time, but in light of current observations such a stance can no longer be reasonably supported.

Questioning dominant paradigms is actually quite a useful activity. And questioning and sometimes lampooning sacred cows. It's essential.

Enlightenment Values are worth preserving. America is the best example of a country which exemplifies Enlightenment values.

Values not given by any god. But rather given by 13.8+ billion years of evolution by natural selection, and by our history & choices.

The religious right denies the facts of evolution, while living lives which are often in fact 'most true' to it.

The dogmatic de facto religious left claims to believe in evolution, while often living lives which are essentially traitorous to evolution.

"...Although the initial development of moral foundations theory focused on cultural differences, subsequent work with the theory has largely focused on political ideology. Various scholars have offered moral foundations theory as an explanation of differences among political progressives (liberals in the American sense), conservatives, and libertarians, and have suggested that it can explain variation in opinion on politically charged issues such as gay marriage and abortion. In particular, Haidt and fellow researchers have argued that progressives stress only two of the moral foundations (Care and Fairness) in their reasoning, and libertarians stress only two (Liberty and Fairness), while conservatives stress all six more equally."
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory

Religion is a natural phenomenon, a fact which cuts several ways. Yes it's another reason for the mystical claims to be debunked. But it also means that fully natural evolved human moral codes of conduct are often couched within religious contexts.

Dennett on religion being natural:
https://youtu.be/56VAZNx8HBQ

...a fact also mostly fully lost on all dogmatic leftist atheists who still have a chip on their should regarding being lied to in their former conservative religions.

Being wrong can be a virtue, if we're willing to change our minds upon new evidence.

Was born an atheist.

At age 5 learned there was a sky god. Seemed strange to me, but ok.

At age 9 learned I was a sexual animal. Whodathunkit.

At age 11 learned that the sky god was more than a bit upset at my being a sexual animal. The natural man, and 11 year old kid coming of age, is an enemy to god after all, right?

Between the ages of 19 and 21 I spent 2 years making maps on 3x5 cards, taking pictures of sunsets, and avoiding a proper admission that I was a normal sexual animal.

While at BYU at the age of 23 I started questioning the shaming the sky god likes to do regarding being a normal sexual animal.

While at Weber State I learned about physics and evolution. What I learned filled a hole left by my increasing rejection of the mysticism learned in my youth.

At age 26 I fully rejected the mysticism, and I resigned from the religion of my youth (Mormonism).

Between the ages of 13 and 23 I was a socially (religiously) conservative Democrat, because my father was a somewhat rare Democrat within a sea of Republicans within his religion.

At 26 I became more socially liberal, an ultra-liberal essentially. Drafted an exit journal.

In response to leaving an ultra-conservative religion, I switched to being an ultra-leftist socially.

Participated in a few nudist events, until I realized they were hypocritical.

Fully bought into Bruce Bagemihl's theory that because there's gay animals therefore gayness must be valued as a primary trail which is being selected for - which I now realize is completely & utterly wrong. Homosexuality is an outlier effect of the way sex gets set up in humans & in all animals which exhibit the treat. A side effect which is not being selected for. What's selected for is reproduction & survival, period. The machinery of biological evolution produces outliers. Doesn't meant the outliers have inherent value. Also doesn't mean they should be thrown off buildings, except for outright pedophiles and psychopaths.

Was a fat bastard living in my parent's basement. Developed cataracts. Had cataract surgery. No more thick glasses. Lost 110 pounds. Lived in Portland, Oregon for a year and a half. While in Portland visited a swingers event once. Didn't witness anything explicit & didn't participate. But I saw basically how they operate. And my assessment was that the way they organized themselves was strange & basically abusive.

After leaving Portland I married a socially conservative atheist from rural China with zero connection to the Book of Mormon, Bible, or Quran.

Took in via videos & lectures much of the work of the following people:

Christopher Hitchens
Richard Dawskins
Daniel Dennett
Steven Pinker
Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Events like 9/11 happened. The Denmark Mohamed cartoons & the stupid & crazy responses. Theo Van Gogh being killed after he released a film about how women in Islam are abused. The Charlie Hebdo massacre. The Garland, Texas Draw Mohamed contest which two Islamic people tried to shoot up.

I examined the response of the left, of the Democrat part of my father, of all the stations & people who liked & listened to & would have listened to. As an ex-Mormon, I examined who exactly supported drawing Mohamed. Who supports ex-Muslims? Who supports Muslims leaving Islam? It's not he left. It's not the Democrats. So, I realized I was wrong, about politics.

My socially conservative atheist wife helped me question the socially leftist paradigm I had bought into as an ex-Mormon with a chip on his shoulder about the lies of Mormonism. Daniel Dennett's talks about religion being a natural phenomenon helped also. Plus I had years of experience of engaging in first hand observational de facto studies of what the left has to offer socially. The nhilism of narcissism of gay culture. What being 'childfree' really means: slow motion suicide. That the left is in denial regarding the roots of homosexuality. And when I told an atheist group in Salt Lake that I liked Duck Dynasty, they booted me in a worse way than I ever experienced when leaving Mormonism. A very religious way of booting.

The children of breeders will inherit the Earth. The 'childfree' will not, and neither will the non-breeding gays.

In the past I used to hate Ayn Rand. Now I'm willing to check out some of her ideas, because mostly *only* libertarians support drawing Mohamed nowadays, and a very few lonely leftists who're mostly in denial regarding how the left has left them behind.

Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, really was a eugenicist. And Christopher Hitchens has rightly pointed out that the unborn do have some rights. The left is wrong about these points also.

While a member of another leftist atheist group, Salt Lake Valley Atheists (now defunct), I observed how they kicked out of their midst a pro-life atheist woman. That experiencing was eye opening for me. Prior to that I thought that atheism equaled skepticism & reason. Now I realize it doesn't, not automatically. Leftist atheism is just another f-ing religion, a cult.

So I'm in recovery from leftistism, politically & socially.

The conservatism I embrace is not that of Glenn Beck, nor of establishment Republicans. I reject religios conservatism which seeks to shame people for masturbation & oral sex & an appreciation of art which falls into the nude and erotic spheres. There is no god who gets upset when gay people meet up. But, from an evolutionary perspective, they'd probably be happier if they lived straight lives.

Heresy, heresy, heresy, for your average leftist atheist who is just so upset with the conservative religions of their youths & etc.

Not throwing out the baby of good evolved highly valuable human values with the bath water of mysticism is a very hard task. Most just assume that 'without god everything is permitted.' But it's not. Not because there's no god, but because we're highly complex evolved moral animals. Evolved moral codes act as counter weights to also evolved proclivities which can lead to destructive dead ends.

Current people on my appreciation list:

Trump - what swayed me to his side after some initial skepticism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiA0P9iELAA
(Milo Y talking with Rubin)

Christopher Hitchens - provided initial key skepticism regarding the Clintons, and regarding some leftist doctrinal tenants. No one left to Lie To, book info.

Daniel Dennett - a much better philosopher than Sam Harris (Harris is I realize now, a myopic hack)

Steven Pinker - debunked the 'blank slate' concepts of social constructivists. Related videos, longer part 1, part 2. And a Ted talk.

Bosch Fawstin - an ex-Muslim who won the Draw Mohamed cartoon contest in Garland, Texas. Talk to Children of Jewish Holocaust Survival. Cartoon contest talk.

Mark Steyn - skepticism regarding the 'hockey stick' concept regarding climate change. Very honest regarding the facts & impacts of Islam.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali - an ex-Muslim truth teller. Colleague of Theo Van Gogh who got killed as noted above. She needs round the clock security, and in America only a conservative think tank would help pay for that security. Leftists consider her to be racist & bigoted - so this is a key reason also why I'm no longer a leftist.

All Enlightenment thinkers, and the Enlightenment-based founders of America.

Roger Stone - a long time truth teller who I've newly found

Dinesh D'Souza - a debate partner with Hitchens. Hitchens told the truth about the Clintons, and Dinesh has a great movie about the issue now. Dinesh may be wrong about whether a god exists, but he's right about the impacts of leftist atheism (very negative nhilistic impacts).

Rush - a valuable truth teller who for too long I discounted & hated. He was right all along. I was wrong for many years.

Sean Hannity - a guy with 20 years of real work experience who hasn't forgotten what it's like to be a regular working Joe. Truth teller.

Milo Yiannopoulos - a brash conservative gay Brit who helped me see the high utilitarian value to a Trump presidency.

Doug Mainwaring - a guy who came to his sanity and returned to be with & support his straight family, AKA his family. My uncle wasn't so lucky, and was a victim of the ultra-right and the ultra-left.

Added August 2017:

Jordan B. Peterson - great info on the problems of neomarxist postmodernism.

Gad Saad - great evolutionary behavior scientist.

---

Related posts:

Lies present in conservative religion force children into the abusive arms of the denialist myopic left.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2016/02/lies-present-in-conservative-religion.html

Where does social conservatism come from? From human nature.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/11/where-does-social-conservatism-come.html

Humans are not Bonobos - Response to Darrel Ray and his brand of so-called Secular Sexuality - Commentary about abusive leftist confusion regarding human nature, and the evolutionary roots and benefits of some degree of sexual shame.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/10/humans-are-not-bonobos-response-to.html

Lives and families are destroyed by Tranny and Gay acceptance and promotion - LGBT abusive outliers are not equal
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/07/lives-and-families-are-destroyed-by.html

Homosexuality occurs in nature? So what. Can I be a "black atheist" too?
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/08/homosexuality-occurrs-in-nature-so-what.html

On American exceptionalism: the left's hatred of America
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/02/on-american-exceptionalism-left-hatred.html

Thank God for the Crusades - speaking as an atheist
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/02/thank-god-for-crusades-speaking-as.html

And the worst of these is Islam: Foolish bleeding hearts helped birth Islamic State
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/02/and-worst-of-these-is-islam-foolish.html

Naked women protesting: The EXACT response needed, to Islam in general, Islamic State, and censors of Charlie Hebdo cartoons.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/02/naked-women-protesting-exact-response.html

Comments in response to the general Mormon stance on marriage
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/02/comments-in-response-to-general-mormon.html

Latest thoughts on the pressing issues of the day
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/02/latest-thoughts-on-pressing-issues-of.html

Leftist religion loves Islam and hates the West and the fruits of the Enlightenment
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/01/leftist-religion-loves-islam-and-hates.html

The Atheist Movement needs move laxative - Making room for social & political conservatives!
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-atheist-movement-needs-move.html

John Harvey Kellogg: what a fucker. Masturbation prevention is evil.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/10/john-harvey-kellogg-what-fucker.html

response to Rory Patrick's 100 day masturbation abstinence - the pain and sorrow of having genitals
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/10/response-to-rory-patricks-100-day.html

Balkan Erotic Epic - part of the set of short films in Destricted - commentary & review
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/10/balkan-erotic-epic-part-of-set-of-short.html

Liberal anger at being human - Criticisms of California Senate Bill SB 967
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/10/liberal-anger-at-being-human-criticisms.html

whitewashing history -- sex obsessed ancestors -- nudist hypocrisy
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/09/whitewashing-history-sex-obsessed.html

Are Mormonism & Catholicism homosexual & pedophile generators?
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/05/are-mormonism-catholicism-homosexual_24.html

Questions for Mormon Missionaries - God, Sex, and honesty | 16 questions for Mormon Missionaries
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/03/questions-for-mormon-missionaries-god.html

Repackaged bullshit: Porn The New Tobacco | Jack Fischer | TEDxBinghamtonUniversity
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/08/repackaged-bullshit-porn-new-tobacco.html

The best part of social conservatism advocates for family & life & children & what leftists derisively call 'breeding.'

Breeders will inherit the Earth. Problems with "recovery" from religion
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/06/breeders-will-inherit-earth-problems.html

Really the children of breeders will inherit the Earth.

The worst part of religious-based 'conservatism' comes from religions which use fear & shame to teach children & adults to hate the evolved sexual systems in their bodies. But this 'conservatism' doesn't conserve anything. It just tends to churn out destructive ultra-right and ultra-left abusive extremists. The ultra-right religionists who stay in their religions & who continue teaching their children to hate their bodies & the fact that we're sexual animals. And the children who reflexively rebel, turning into non-reproductive outliers & 'childfree' wastrels.

Liberals have a strange alliance with ultra-right religious 'conservatives.' Leftists hate human nature just as much as the ultra-right religionists seems to. The combined human-nature-hating team consists of: Islam people, some Mormons, some Catholics, and leftists who a.) love Islam, and b.) hate the fact that human males are evolved to enjoy good looking women - and who hate 1.2 billion years of evolutionary sexual history just as much as the ultra-right religionists do. Leftists also hate the fact that humans are sexually dimorphic, and they actively ignore that we're not 'blank slates,' as Steven Pinker has commented on.

I'm for good women and men who put family & children first.

I'm proudly voting for Trump. He's my kind of Republican. Not a highly shaming human-nature-hating right-wing religionist, nor a human-nature-hating leftist.

Conserving through truth telling. Conserving through advocacy for family. Conversing through de facto advocacy that the Western Enlightenment continue - which also means conserving and protecting America & traditional American values.

Perhaps where I'm at is a socially moderate / conservative / pragmatic libertarian. But I strongly maintain that pot does rot your brain. And I don't dogmatically follow all libertarian principles. Libertarianism can be a de facto religion too, and I don't wish to join any religions.

I probably aspire to the conservatism Jonathan Haidt mentions, with more equal alliance to Care, Fairness, Liberty, Loyalty, Authority, and Sanctity. The Sanctity of life, not the Sanctity of sacred cows. Loyalty to the Enlightenment and Enlightenment principles. The Authority of the Rule of Law. Care, but not through the Dole because the Dole helps no one mostly. Fairness, but not 'social justice.' Fairness through a fairness of opportunity - but not opportunity at the cost of group rights hierarchies nor identity politics.

Repackaged bullshit: Porn The New Tobacco | Jack Fischer | TEDxBinghamtonUniversity

November 2017 addendum:

My views on the matter of porn have evolved some. From Pompeii onward there's many examples showing that humans have enjoyed watching portrayals of human sexuality. The ideal expression of sexuality is within marriage. Before marriage, masturbation should be used, but prudently so that you still have enough sexual energy for dating.

Yes, regular porn is crass and stupid, and even abusive. And the industry is a sink hole of abuse. Harlotry & whoring, on film.

Yes it's useful to see how sex works.

Yes, it can be fun. But, don't have too much fun. Seek out people in real life.

Balance.

Prudence.

What would be the solution? Well, I would now lean toward keeping kids away from the stuff completely of course. Completely. And adult should should be, well, as f-ing minimal as possible, with a very strong preference being given toward real in person interactions.

Dating and marriage in other words. Marriage. And yes marriage with children, and that's the point of sex: children!

-----------------------

Ultra-right religious bullshit, repackaged via TED(x) morons:

Porn The New Tobacco | Jack Fischer | TEDxBinghamtonUniversity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9pPgIraoOM
My video response:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZDHeKDieAc

Human interest in watching open expressions of human sexuality isn't fucking the new tobacco.

And neither is the darker side of porn 1.0, where people crassly sell a very poor and inaccurate portrayal of human sexuality.

Porn 2.0 is a step up, where people organically share more honest expressions of intimate activities. Sites such as xtube.com have such expressions, but sadly sites with some porn 2.0 content are fully funded via crass & abusive porn 1.0 content.

Porn 3.0 would be where humans can share full & honest expressions of human sexuality without the abusive harlottry of porn 1.0 being around at all.

Also Porn 3.0 would mention how sex results in babies! Perish the thought!

Can the two concepts be merged? Porn 3.0 would leave the whores in the dust, but still would share honest expressions of human sexuality.

Now, back to Jack Fischer: This "nofap" business of ascribing nobility to abstinence from masturbation: That is abuse - the very quintessence of it.

My own experience with masturbation in the Mormon Church:

Mortal Mormonism: How Mormons are taught to do right, then betrayed and shamed by their upper leaders. By Jonathan , a former: temple worker, full time missionary, Sunday School president, priesthood holder, and member of the Mormon Church. A personal journal & explanation.

http://corvus.freeshell.org/corvus_corax/two/life_path/Mortal_Mormonism.htm
or http://corvus.freeshell.org/corvus_corax/two/life_path/Mortal-Mormonism-November-26-2005.pdf

In Mormonism they teach young children from at least the age of eleven that masturbation is evil. They also readily share a terrible book called Miracle of Forgiveness by past Mormon prophet Spencer Kimball about the evils of masturbation, how masturbation can destroy your life, may turn you into a homosexual, and is a sin which must be confessed to a Mormon Bishop and is a sin which makes it so you cannot visit the Mormon temples.

Related previous posts:

Jesus wants me for an asshole: the song of LDS missionaries, bishops, and prophets
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/03/jesus-wants-me-for-asshole-song-of-lds.html

lds.org : discover the perversity or Mormonism
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/02/ldsorg-discover-perversity-or-mormonism.html

Advice for TBMs on porn: Why society accepts pornography but not littering?
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/05/advise-for-tbms-on-porn-why-society.html

To the Mormon wife whose husband is 'addicted to porn:' 12 *real* steps that will help!
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/07/to-mormon-wife-whos-husband-is-addicted.html

---------------

Now it's true that there's "dangers" with uneducated exposure to crass harlotry. But on the other hand we can go too far with the shaming.

So take with a huge grain of salt advise from fuckers like this guy:

The great porn experiment | Gary Wilson | TEDxGlasgow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSF82AwSDiU

Why be wary of advise from people like this guy? Because there's a very easy abusive slope and connection between ultra-right type abusive sexual shaming, and the supposedly secular repackaging of these ideas. The "secular" supposedly "scientific" repackaging of ultra-right religious shaming regarding human sexuality - is by it's very nature inherently problematic.

As for all this, and especially regarding shaming for masturbation:

You CAN and you WILL teach children to hate their own bodies!

You CAN and you WILL teach children and adults VERY unhealthy ideas regarding masturbation and the value of self-touching and self-exploration.

You CAN and you WILL teach adults they should be AFRAID of having too much sexual energy present in their lives, and in their relationships!

Teaching people to be afraid and fearful of the SEXUAL SYSTEMS built into them by billions of years evolution by natural selection: THAT IS ABUSIVE!

So there is ZERO nobility in abstaining from masturbation.

There is value in having enough sexual energy and motivation to go on a date, or to love your wife more often. That's true! But the easy-ready slope to teaching people to hate their own bodies just because we're inherently sexual, that is something we need to be very careful about doing.

So you abstained from masturbation for six months?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzterc3NqeU

You stupid dumb fuck: Prostate cancer awaits.

Also you are cheating yourself by doing such a moronic thing!

What a moron you are - you "nofap" fool!
Secular repackaging of ultra-right religious shame is really just lipstick on an otherwise abusive pig.

Sorry to see that the TED / TEDx effort has been hijacked by all this. Rich snobs can be dumbshits too.Joycelyn Elders on masturbation:

"...Masturbation, practiced consciously or unconsciously, cultivates in us a humble elegance -- an awareness that we are part of a larger natural system, the passions and rhythms of which live on in us. Sexuality is part of creation, part of our common inheritance, and it reminds us that we are neither inherently better nor worse than our sisters and brothers. Far from evil, masturbation just may render heavenly contentment in those who dare..."
http://web.archive.org/web/20041019084748/http://www.uno.edu/~asoble/pages/elders.htm

And remember that Bill Clinton fired her for stating this type of thing.

Clinton Fires Surgeon General Over New Flap
http://articles.latimes.com/1994-12-10/news/mn-7305_1_surgeon-general

...while at the same time Clinton was having oral sex in the oval office.

A good response from Hitchens:
No One Left to Lie To: The Triangulations of William Jefferson Clinton
http://www.amazon.com/One-Left-Lie-Triangulations-Jefferson/dp/1455522996

Bill Clinton, Womanizer and Adulterer In Chief, fired a surgeon general who advocates for the value of masturbation.

Past Mormon Prophet Spencer Kimball tells married couples they should not engage in oral sex, and that masturbation is a great evil.

Oral sex:
http://lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter.shtml
page two:
http://lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter1.shtml

Masturbation:
http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/masturbation.htm

Mormon leader Boyd Packer comes out with an incredibly abusive anti-masturbation pamphlet which is shared very widely with all Mormon boys.

Text in pamphlet:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/only.shtml

Evangelical Christian fuckers buy into the same abusive bullshit.

And then fucking TEDx allows repackagers of ultra-right religious shame in a supposedly "secular" form.

Thanks TEDx & TED, and go to hell.

--------------

Keep masturbating!

Share your masturbation experiences with your partner!

Help your partner start masturbating!

Even be so bold as to search for porn 2.0 on the internet (real people engage in real sex, not whores showing a false view - hard to find, but may you can find it).

Use that you find to help to expand your repertoire with your real life partner!

Your brain isn't being hijacked, no more than breathing hijacks your body. Sex is a key part of who we are - inseparable. That's why people who teach us to feel bad for being sexual animals are evil, even sexual repackagers of such abusive shame.

Yes there's some value in limited amounts of shame if a given activity leads to a dead end. But medium or long term abstinence from masturbation is an inherent abuse.

Religions like Mormonism & Evangelical Christianity DO hijack human sexuality, for their own nefarious ends. They subvert normal natural humanity for their own evil ends. And "nofap" is a supposedly secular apology for this subversion.

Suicide in Mormonism from anti-masturbation bull, as in the The Godmakers documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm1oS00F4n4&t=23m15s 
...start at or fast forward to time index 23:15, and especially continue through past 24:33 to learn about a young man who killed himself because he was taught within Mormonism to hate his own body.

More info:
http://web.archive.org/web/20131021180407/http://www.affirmation.org/suicide_info/sin_and_death_in_mormon_country.shtml

------------

Additional links:

Mormon Bishops Are Child Abusers | Brain washed pretentious pompous claptrap, from a bunch of retrograde old farts: Thomas S. Monson, Spencer W. Kimball, Boyd Packer
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/03/mormon-bishops-are-child-abusers-brain.html

Thanks Masturbation!
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/32jfqh/thanks_masturbation/

Mormon Bishop shows first hand how they interrogate children on the topic:
http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Email-exchange-with-bishop-regarding-masturbation

No More: End Mormons' Sexually Invasive Interviews of Children - facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/pages/No-More-End-Mormons-Sexually-Invasive-Interviews-of-Children/503622079732706

Time To Ask Romney About LDS History Of Sex Abuse Cover-ups
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/time-ask-romney-about-lds-history-sex

#MORMONS allow their children to be interrogated by #LDS Bishops about Sex/Masturbation behind closed doors.It is Child Abuse #twitterstake
https://twitter.com/cwillardsmoot/status/586191864732192769

Masturbation 'cuts cancer risk'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3072021.stm

Resignation from the FB group Uncensored LDS/Mormon Discussions

Today I resigned from the group Uncensored LDS/Mormon Discussions.

Why, might you ask?

Oh my god. The answer is so easy: Because the group has censorship!

Here's a copy of the letter I posted:

Ok I'm out of here. I returned to the Mormon pie for a while. Now it's time to leave I can see.

Previously I had mostly moved passed the need to constantly chat about the Mo church. Then I was invited to join this group. I was attracted by the "uncensored" label, and found some joy in being in a place which I thought was truly uncensored. An open forum. And so on.

My experience here was not fully pleasant. Personal attacks - once I questioned some people's dominant paradigms. Then having to block several people who either were directly offensive, piling on, and then as a defense to block a few others who looked to me like they probably were good candidates (because they probably wouldn't like hearing from the "other side" of a given issue as per their own profiles).

Many admins are still too "new exmo," or they've landed in a place where their whole being cannot easily tolerate criticisms of where they've landed.

I have no idea why I blocked one of the admins. But at the time I probably had a good reason. Maybe it's time to search for forums outside the scope of FB again. More anonymity. More freedom. Less control, in general. But mainly more freedom to speak.

FB does have a "blocking" feature. IMO it's generally an abuse to force people to refrain from blocking "all admins" on a given forum (especially when a given forum has many admins), if some of those admins are either a.) the attacking type, or b.) engage in admin-enabled pile ons, or c.) appear to be a person who probably would engage in an attack based on their own strong positions unyielding positions on a given issue.

Ok, so we'll see you on the flip side. Enough of the Mormon pie.

Recovery from Mormonism.

Recovery from the Exmormon Foundation.

Recovery from the Unitarian Universalists.

Recovery from the "PostMormon" coffee group.

Recovery from Atheists of Utah.

Recovery from naturalist & humanist groups who are religions unto themselves.

Recovery from a temporary wade back into the deep waters of Mormonism via this forum. Time to depart...

Don't stay too long w/recovery groups - for your own well being. Move on to greener pastures... That's my advise. I have. I need to remember that. Bye.

-----------------------

Anyway it's quite sad really. When Mormons leave the Mormon Church they easily retain their propensity to control & censor others. Is the reason for this that religion is a natural phenomenon? Perhaps. Perhaps it is simply natural to try to control other people. To try & force them to your own meme set's rules & ideals.

The "Uncensored LDS/Mormon Discussions" group is still hierarchical. Thus they MUST censor to maintain their hierarchy & leadership. Disrespect (or block for whatever reason) one of five admins, and you're out. That's censorship.

Also the group constantly chats about Mormon stuff. Really, I was mostly past the need to chat about Mormon minutia. I've got bigger fish to fry & better things to spend my time responding to. So really, it's perhaps a blessing in disguise that these ex-Mormons acted exactly like many ex-Mormons do: They act exactly like Mormons. So, time to move on past these people. And by the way, many other religions act like Mormons too. Heresy trials. Excommunication. Even liberal groups do this! That's why it's important to try & move beyond religion, where possible. To embrace fully free speech. Even free speech for those who hurt the feelings of others.

Honesty must take precedence.

Has your life been happier after leaving Mormonism?

Questions: "...How has life been since you left the LDS church? Do you feel like you're happier?"

Yes, I'm happier, for many reasons.

I'm also upset, for other reasons.

Happy because:

1. I have a wife & kid who aren't Mormon.
2. I'm out.
3. I can touch my John Thomas.
4. I can engage in oral sex.
5. I can drink coffee, tea, and cabernet sauvignon wine.
6. I can watch Destricted, or Caligula without shame or guilt.
7. My kid won't be a Mormon.
8. I'm more intellectually honest.
9. I'm more emotionally honest.
10. I'm no longer in the soul-destroying culture of Mormonism.

Upset because:

A. The "recovery" groups like Atheists of Utah, Unitarian Universalism, CFI, Humanist groups, Minnesota Atheists, Atheism Plus, and even your local Stonewall center (for those so sucked in), are all de facto ultra-leftist religions, with their own unquestionable dogmas & doctrines. Denying human nature & human history, while claiming to be skeptical. Assuming that everything IS permitted when there is no god, even though it's not.

B. The defeatist Krausian mayfly theory of human existence is out there in the secular community, teaching atheists to be just as nihilistic as your average evangelical Christian.

C. Finding that the left can be just as abusive as the right.

D. Finding that the left is so incredibly myopic about the entire scope of human experience. Only the hippie tribes are valued. But desert tribes, or even Chinese tribes, oh, we must ignore them. Hippie colored glasses slant their view.

E. On the other hand, I'm also upset that the Mormon Church continues to destroy the lives of children & adults, via wide publication in many languages of incredibly abusive books like Miracle of Forgiveness. I'm also upset that sexually intrusive interviews still happen with children & adults.

More: http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/

Bathroom dreams in Mormon temples | Not everyone in Utah is Mormon

Last night I had a bathroom dream about a Mormon Temple. The temple I dreamt of had a special Anglican cathedral looking wing, where a bookstore was & where anyone could visit. In the basement where the ceremonies happen the staff let me use the restroom.

I remember as a little chumplet 12 year old dreaming of going to the temple so that I could do baptisms for the dead. Then when I was 21 at Ricks College I was a temple worker at the Idaho Falls Temple, and then later while back in Salt Lake at the Jordan River temple. So temples do creep into my dreams sometimes. But often my dreams will make some modifications. Bigger, or with a gothic wing added. Hmmm.

[Above photo from a Jerry's sandwich shop near the D.C. Temple.
Notice the Wizard of Oz theme appropriately and aptly added.
Click on the photo to see a larger version.]
Why do Mormons build temples so close to freeways? The D.C. & Portland temples are right there next to the freeways. Huge buildings with bright lights - easily causing traffic accidents. And yet they won't let you go inside.

To go inside you must agree to:

1. Have no coffee.
2. Have no black tea.
3. Support & sustain past & present leaders, including Joseph Smith, Spencer Kimball, and Thomas Monson.
4. Not engage in oral sex.
5. Not engage in pre-marital sex.
6. Not engage in masturbation.

What an abusive requirements list. No wonder the people who do go inside are often so very anally-retentive.

Pay Lae Ell can go to hell. That's what I decided.

Hey, I remember as a kid in Mormon Sunday School learning John Birch Society conspiratorial stuff, such as:

A. Some day the U.S. Constitution will be hanging by a thread.
B. The Elders of Israel (ie: Mormons) will come to save it.
C. Some day we'll all have to move back to Missouri.
D. When that happens non-Mormons will be able to enter the Salt Lake Temple.

Glenn Beck has stupidly bought into a lot of this conspiratorial shit.

But in any case: Would that be so bad to letting people who aren't anally retentive bass ackward Mormons into the temples?

Hey, oral sex, masturbation, coffee, and cabernet sauvignon wine loving atheist exmormons do get to walk around the Salt Lake Temple, and check out the pretty little door knobs:

Brigham Young came up with the beehive symbol supposedly, the symbol for Utah.

It takes a big beehive to house all the wives of Brigham Young. He had to have TWO houses to house all his wives, the Lion & Beehive house. Hmmm. Plus some of his wives were still married to other men.

Anyway, not everyone who lives in Utah is a fucking Mormon. Attention, this is true!

Yes, some people in Utah like wine, coffee, tea, masturbation, and oral sex! It's true my friend...

Do you all see a difference between being an atheist and being antireligion? | Atheism is a religion

Q. Do you all see a difference between being an atheist and being anti religion?

A. Atheist / Humanist / Secular / Unitarian Univeralist groups all have the trappings of a religion. They are naturally & of course "anti" to other religions they disagree with, just as all religions are "anti" to other religions.

Not everything is equal. Some religions, including the religion of atheism, do make valid claims & contentions about the problems with other religions.

The UUs will admit their group is a religion, "but with no dogma." However that claim of theirs is basically a lie.

Most atheist & secular groups will & do have (unless great effort is made to avoid it) de facto or outwardly expressed dogmas, doctrines, tenants, heresy trials, excommunications, priests, elders, and prophets.

The trappings of religion appear to be part of human nature, and thus are VERY difficult to exclude from ANY social group formed by humans. Meme set (belief) maintenance. Heresy trials. Excommunication. And so on. These are a few of religion's favorite things.

The god thing is not so much an issue, really - when we consider how religious liberals use the term. The muff mouthed Templeton Foundation smoke generator Krista Tippett has shown us the way: for the liberal god can mean anything you want. She & her cohorts strongly want to continue to use the "g" term even if their definition essentially means nothing.

But in any case, like I say liberal religion (which includes most atheist groups) includes dogma, doctrines, tenants, heresy trials, excommunications, priests, elders, and prophets - and that's the main problem, and why they ARE religions in my view.

A "break" from the religious tradition would entail the following key principles:

1. Not being doctrinally tied to any one political AND social agenda.

2. Being willing to accept what honest science, honest experience, honest history, fully uncensored & open discussion, and fully open membership, may result in. A free & open exchange of ideas. A crucible. Science has shown as the way, as have people like Pinker & Hitchens.

3. Being willing to challenge our own suppositions, really challenge them & not just give lip service to such challenges. Are your beliefs falsifiable? From what I've seen many atheists do not maintain their beliefs are, not really. G term this G term that. It's not so much about the G term. It's about doctrines, dogmas, and ideologies, and agendas we ourselves are unwilling to question.

4. Not having de facto heresy trials for people who disagree with the group-leader's positions or beliefs.

5. Not having de facto excommunication trials for people who disagree with the group-leader's positions or beliefs.

6. God forbid, being willing to accept that some aspects of social conservatism may actually have some value to human happiness & well being. The fact that religion is a natural phenomenon (ref Daniel Dennett) cuts both ways.

7. However we have to be careful of the "naturalistic fallacy." Just because something is natural doesn't mean that activity is helpful to humanity. And yet, fully-naturally highly-valuable actions & activities can be fully couched within fully-natural religion. This is a hard pill for the recoverer from an abusive cult like Mormonism to accept. Mormonism by it's own actions is hurting the otherwise good causes they advocate for. Revisionist history. Harsh treatment of heretics. Child abuse. Their extreme abusive actions actually HURT the otherwise good things they may advocate for. Their way-over-the-top responses to things like masturbation, well, it pushes people WAY over to the other side - but the other side isn't any better. But it takes time for an exmo to learn this - via first hand experience, and taking a step back from ALL the craziness on ALL sides.

Additional related thoughts:

Humans are not a tabula rasa. Pinker showed this via his most excellent book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_chalks_it_up_to_the_blank_slate

Libertarians are "lightly" tolerated in atheist groups. Social conservatives are not. Such a state of affairs indicates a problematic naivete which is highly common among "liberals," speaking as a liberal myself perhaps for the most part.

Liberals don't know crap about what happens in conservative religions. They pretty much know nothing about Islam for example. AND they also know nothing about what happens within their own camp on the ultra-left side.

Conservatives have their problems. But the answer or solution to a given problem is not always the exact opposite view. Being willing to take a step back from our little realm & sphere of experience helps to see where the real truth may lie.

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com

Response to a brainwashed Mormon woman from Oregon

On Facebook I found a post by a current Mormon who lives in Oregon. Below I've drafted her questions & my responses. The text next to the Q for question items is her text. And my responses are next to the A for answers.

---

Howdy.

Your profile doesn't look like a one-off troll type account, and so I'm going to respond in more detail:

Q. Why is it so important for non LDS people to tear down the LDS religion?

A. Normally when people act in this regard it's for reasons they feel are good & valuable.

There is a substantial difference between the Evangelical protestors outside of the Great & Spacious Building & Temple Square during Mo. Conference, and why we wish to "tear down the LDS religion."

I also don't put much stock in people who're unhappy with Mormonism because the Mormon Jesus is different from the Baptist or Protestant or Catholic Jesuses. I could care less about such differences.

However there are many valuable, good, reasonable, valid, cogent, evidence-based, experience-based, fact-based reasons we can give as to why we express concerns, and why we use the tonalities we use as we express our concerns.

Do you REALLY want to know the answer, or are you just claiming there CAN BE NO answer which contradicts the validity of Mormonism? If your approach is the latter, then there's not much use in proceeding further. However if you really want to know the answer, here's where to find out more:

1. My own exit journal: http://corvus.freeshell.org/corvus_corax/two/life_path/life_path.htm#history

2. The exit journals of hundreds of others:

http://www.exmormon.org/stories.htm

3. Specific exit journals by others I find particularly valuable:

Simon Southerton - http://www.exmormon.org/whylft125.htm
audio form his speech during his 2006 appearance at an exmo conference:
http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/audio2006.html

Additional conference audio files: http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/conference-archive.html

Q. I don't see anyone trying to do this with any other religion.

A. Are you sure? Atheists tend to know the most about religion.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/28/nation/la-na-religion-survey-20100928

http://bigthink.com/videos/reading-the-bible-or-the-koran-or-the-torah-will-make-you-an-atheist

Scientology criticism: http://www.xenu.net/

JW recovery: http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/jw-sites.html

Unitarian Univeralist recovery: http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-new-creed-of-unitarian-universalism.html

Catholic: http://bishop-accountability.org/

Islam: http://ex-muslim.org.uk

Q. Belief is belief

A. What a person believes in makes a difference. Not all beliefs have equal value. Some beliefs hurt people & destroy lives.

Q. belief in something is better than belief in nothing.

A. We don't believe in "nothing." We just don't believe in Joseph Smith's alien Kolobite god.

http://corvus.freeshell.org/psittacus/three/tract/kolob_tract.htm

Q. Like all religions it is not for everyone

A. Abusive controlling brain washing iron fisted destructive religions should be for no one, ideally.

Q. should remain a personal choice.

A. Children cannot choose. Most children are sucked into the religion of their parents. They don't have the ability to choose. Even adults can be sucked in though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

Q. If you make the choice to remain a non believer in the LDS religion

A. A non-believer is no longer in the religion.

Q. then you have no right to tear it down.

A. We have EVERY RIGHT (!!!) to speak our mind, and we shall continue to do so. It is a terrible offense and abuse to request that we do otherwise.

Your church did this (among MANY other abuses):

http://web.archive.org/web/20131021180407/http://www.affirmation.org/suicide_info/sin_and_death_in_mormon_country.shtml

"On March 2, 1982, Kip Eliason, age 16, distraught and filled with self-hate over his inability to stop masturbating, committed suicide..."

Good job there, Mrs. Mormon. Good job, Spencer Kimball, Boyd Packer, and parents like you (presumably). You helped Kip stop playing with his "little factory" such that he felt it necessary to kill himself.

More appropriate responses:

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/boyd%20packer

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/Spencer%20Kimball

Yes, they couldn't keep their Jesus off my penis. But, there's many other abuses that happen.

Abuses of power. Telling members they cannot question the leaders, and if they do they'll be kicked out. Being kicked out may also be turned out onto the street from your family. Complete exclusion from your own family. And even for more "nice" Mormons it will still mean exclusion from temple marriage ceremonies & other things.

PART-Member family. PART, part, part, part, member family. Which "part" is the good part and which part is the evil part? Which part is the good wing, and which part is the damaged wing that one would be better off cutting off? Member. Non-member. Apostate. Enemy of the Church. And so on.

These are ALL expressions of OUT GROUP morality. Not nice. Not good. Yes fully natural. But best worth discouraging where possible.

Thank goodness for the Internet for increasing all the scope of all of our in-group morality. The 'net is hurting Mormonism & other expressions of destructive out-group morality - and that's a good thing.

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/12/genocide-in-bible-ingroup-outgroup.html

http://edge.org/conversation/mc2011-history-violence-pinker

Q. If you are an inactive member due to some wrong you think you suffered then that is also your choice.

A. When a church leader acts as as an instrument of abuse (which they do by default), is that their choice?

When Joseph Smith slept with a 14 year old & with the wives of other men, was it his choice? Or is it only an even-choice when someone decides they don't like the abuse? A choice that can be easily discounted?

Yes, people use their brains to make decisions. To get away from the abusers, the cult, the brain washing, the control, and to be more free. And that's a good thing.

Q. It doesn't make the religion wrong

A. Yes it does. What else would? History, or revisionist-history? Facts, or just faith-promoting-pseudo-facts? The real life experiences of people, or just those interpreted in a way to never criticize the Mormon Church or it's leaders?

Q. It just makes it wrong for you as an individual.

A. No, not everything is equal. Not everything is relative. Not all churches are of equal value. Not all churches help and/or hurt their followers in the same way.

Q. I am an active member and devout in my beliefs

A. Which is exactly why you're saying what you're saying. Meme set defense mechanisms. Amazing, but very sad. Mormon Brain Software. Yes, I had similar software running in my brain, and I'm quite familiar with how it works. The Church is always right, everything else be damned. Joseph the charismatic charlatan has shown you the way.

Q. It was the right choice for me and my children

A. You are actively abusing your children by allowing them to remain within Mormonism.

Q. and we are happy.

A. Happy in the gilded cage?

Happy in the black & white world of Pleasantville, or the color version? Happy in the dream world of all-encompassing all-encircling Mormonism, or in the real world of reality? Is ignorance bliss? It can be for a time. But in the long term being forcibly ignorant keeps a person's brain & soul in a type of prison.

http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/Redpill

Q. No one really knows if religion is true.

A. We know it isn't. 8 year olds at fast & testimony meeting, and their brain washed parents, know it is.

Q. No one really knows if there is an afterlife.

A. There isn't.

Q. My chosen religion has made me a better person

A. You don't sound like a better person so far.

Q. and has given me a standard in which to live my life.

A. Your standard for living should not come from old farts who want to get your money & keep you down. Humans have built-in morality, instilled by evolution by natural selection, and by the "neck-top" apps given by culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_chalks_it_up_to_the_blank_slate

your neck-top: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q_mY54hjM0
and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXvldBqYjGM

Q. I have peace in it.

A. The peace that comes from ignorance. The peace that comes from ignoring the pain of others. The peace the comes from putting your head in the sand. The peace that comes from letting your children be grilled about masturbation, and putting your children's genitals into the hands of fucking old abusive farts. The peace that comes from forcibly excluding others. The peace that comes from being a cult follower.

Q. Just because you have chosen not to believe doesn't mean the religion is wrong,

A. Are your beliefs falsifiable? If not your brain might be in a box. You need to let it out. Science shows us the way: Criticism & skepticism in the first instance. And then later truth & fact finding after cogent theory development, testing, peer review, and so on. But being willing to trash the ideas of your fellows, in good faith, all in an attempt to find out where the actual truth lies. Are you doing that now? No. Yes your religion is wrong.

Q. or that Joseph Smith (my ancestor) was a bad man.

A. OMG. Were I still a Mormon, I would now be in awe of you.

The progeny of JS has spoken, and is here before us. If you were a man you might be a G.A. today. But because you don't have a penis you're pretty much excluded from any real leadership roles. Damn. If you have some male children maybe they've got a chance.

Does a bad man sleep with a 14 year old and with the wives of other men?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Q. It is the fastest growing religion in the world

A. No it ain't.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/?hpt=hp_c1

"...The fastest growing 'religious' group in America is made up of people with no religion at all..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion#Overall_statistics

Damn. Looks like atheism or Islam, depending on which column you choose.

Q. in the Hispanic population

A. Less educated people in Mexico & South America are more easily sucked in.

Q. so there must be something to it.

A. Yes there is. Amway on steroids. A cult. A sink. A whirlpool.

Religion is a natural phenomenon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_the_Spell:_Religion_as_a_Natural_Phenomenon

Q. See it for what it is.......A CHOICE

A. I don't really know why you keep saying choice. Choice this. Choice that.

You don't seem to understand the subtleties or realities of how the human brain works. A brain can be sucked in and held down. When a brain is in Mormonism it engages in meme-set defense & maintenance activities. There's a lot less choice in this process.

While I do believe & maintain we have free will, I can see where Sam Harris is coming from:

Sam Harris's view on free will:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FanhvXO9Pk

Daniel Dennett's response:

http://www.naturalism.org/Dennett_reflections_on_Harris%27s_Free_Will.pdf
or http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/reflections-on-free-will

Harris's response to Dennett's review:
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-marionettes-lament

In any case we have more free will that a petunia or a carrot. Our neural networks are incredibly complex computers which has far more decision-making power than other animals. But we are animals, and built-in traits & proclivities have far more of an influence than many would like to admit.

Humans can be sucked into cults. They are sucked into cults. Children are sucked into the religions of their parents. If a child's parents believe in an abusive religion, then they will probably grow up and become an abuser themselves - unless they come to their senses as they become more psychologically adult, or if they're exposed to enough evidence (personal or otherwise) which finally dislodges them from the abusive-religion meme set.

Q. The ones who feel damaged and destroyed can go their own way and figure out what is best for them.

A. What's best for us is to do exactly what we're doing now.

Trying to help educate people like you about the problems with the cult you're in. Your brain & body have been hijacked, as have the brains & bodies of your children.

Here's a quote from a post I made back in 2012,
at http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/adorations_index.html/viewthread/35772/#561941

Recently I discovered that Miracle of Forgiveness is available at the mobot distribution centers, in several different languages. In each language section they have the BOM, maybe a bible, but always this POS book.
http://www.lds.org/braille/The Miracle of Forgiveness.txt

Very appropriate responses to this book can be found in the form of one star reviews at Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Miracle-of-Forgiveness-ebook/product-reviews/B002JQK1VG/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

Since the Mormon Church apparently considers this book to still be highly relevant, then every despicable thing Spencer Kimball & Boyd Packer have done relative to negative portrayals of human sexuality to the youth & adults in the church is relevant also.

On oral sex, Spencer wants to get into your bedroom:
http://lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter.shtml
http://lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter1.shtml

On masturbation, Spencer & Boyd both want to have a look:
http://www.zionsbest.com/only.html
http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/masturbation.htm

Also Spencer really is concerned about "petting" and "heavy petting." Oh my, that f-ing old fart must really have been hyperventilating when he wrote his Miracle of Forgiveness book. Necking. Petting. Heavy Petting. Tell us more Spencer, about all the things you dream about at night but also hate yourself for thinking of.

But people say he was such a nice man. My father has said this, as did my mother who worked as a nurse in the COB. But the guy was really not so nice after all, after you read all hateful the trash he put out.

Here's a related blog post:
Subverting normal human sexuality: Mormon Church's principal crime
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/12/subverting-normal-human-sexuality.html

Anyway, with my new wife seeing the pretty white shirts and the pretty buildings, and with my more recent research into the issue of Kimball's trash book being widely promoted in different languages by the mobot church, I decided to put on youtube a reprise of a song I created some time ago:

We were all just sperm in god's balls, a parody of the song Seeds:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/12/we-were-all-just-sperm-in-gods-balls.html

And, with Joseph Smith's nutty view of heaven in the form of Kolob, and "Kobol" entering the common consciousness in the form of the much less campy newer Battlestar Galatica version, the following newer song came out of a recent morning shower singing session:

Launch a Mission to Kolob...
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/12/launch-mission-to-kolob-and-blow-place.html

Joseph gets to have a 14 year old wife & wives who are still married to other men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wives

Brigham gets a 15 year old & wives still married to other men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young's_wives

But, Spencer & Boyd really were/are obsessed with that you and your children are up to at home, at night, in the privacy of your bedrooms. What's up with that? And since Spencer's piece of trash book is *very* relevant for the Mormon Church, as per their having it readily available in many different languages at their distribution centers, (and reportedly since it's required reading for new missionaries) it's clear that they are still very interested in transmitting this human spirit destroying set of memes onto everyone they can.

What is up with the Mormon Church & sex? Their horn dog founder created a religion whose god, apparently, has to have an orgasm every 4.6 minutes to create 107 billion people in one million years.

107 billion people may have lived on Earth so far:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097038/Are-really-people-alive-today-lived-Earth.html
...and that number doesn't account for "worlds without end."

Perhaps the Mormon God is rather like a giant space termite:
http://www.termite.com/images/queenking.jpg
...that would be more fitting.

Is your god an alien?
http://corvus.freeshell.org/psittacus/three/tract/kolob_tract.htm

...and yet, now they want to very much control even the mere thought of sex in their members. Why? Because once a person actually allows themselves to be open to the possibility of sex being fun, normal, natural, empowering, and liberating, they can more easily find they have no use for the Mormon God or for the supposedly good feelings you get during Mormon Church meetings or from reading the lies of Joseph in the form of the Mormon scriptures.

The Mormon Church tries to hijack people's basic emotions, and to subvert & control & misinterpret them for their own nefarious ends. Other conservative religions do this also.

In any case I get much better feelings of validation from the love of my wife & new son than I ever got in mostly boring Mormon Church meetings, and from the occasional good feelings they claimed "proved" their church was correct. There's a price to be paid for pretty white shirts and pretty buildings.

If feelings can be used as a form of validation, then that means the much better feelings I've had since leaving mean their lies were incorrect.

----------end of quote

Q. That doesn't mean it isn't good for those of us the religion is working for.

A. It's bad for you even if you think it's good.

Life in Oregon is rather substantially different than life in Provo (unless you live too close to the Portland Temple).

Q. I was a Catholic before I converted to LDS and I wasn't happy but I refuse to bash that religion.

A. Bash away. They need some bashing. Child raping priests? Sounds like a good reason to bash. Have at it!

Q. I have seen no evidence worth my time

A. It was worth your time to write. Is it worth your time to read the responses? If it's not, don't bother complaining in the first place.

Q. I do believe in the church and our prophets, the apostles and the corum of the 70.

A. It's spelled quorum.

Your post is a prime example of why you're not really a happy nor healthy person while being Mormon. Blind ignorance to the life experiences of others. Forcible ignorance to evidence, truth, fact, real history, and so on. You have been abused. You are being abused. And if your children are in the church, they are being abused, for many reasons.

Q. I believe in its teachings and how the church was restored by Joseph Smith.

A. More examples of your abused-status.

Q. All that evidence you talk about is made up and false.

A. More evidence of your being in a cult.

Q. This is a life style for active members, not a hobby or just something we do on Sundays.

A. We know damn well what life is like in the Mormon Church.

Q. We cannot be swayed by false propaganda and 'evidence' written by angry inactives or non-members.

A. More evidence that you're not a nice, happy, or healthy person.

If you want to have a dialogue with people who've left, you can have one, you can have a conversation. But NO we won't shut up at your request. We WON'T stop speaking. We WON'T stop calling out problems with the church of our youth. We WON'T stop trying to free people from the abuse - and that includes trying to free YOU from it.

Sincerely,

Jonathan

April 22, 2014

p.s. Regarding the process of science & how it works:

"Trashing" & "tear down" might imply that everything's up for grabs when it isn't. Yes it's the goal of all reasonable honest scientists to try to "tear down" existing theories. To disprove them. To show where they're wrong. But more often than not one theory builds upon another. Einstein's theories didn't destroy Newton's. It simply built upon the previous theory, showed where Newton's claims remain valid (for most of human experience & speeds & viewpoints), and where they fall apart (eg: close to the speed of light or when next to very massive objects). Same goes for other new theories, usually. But when a bigger part of a theory is overturned, we view that with joy, not concern. Cha-ching - we've now learned MORE about the Universe. Super!

The truth finding method of science is far more powerful because of this. Far more accurate results than other methods.

In science you get ahead by disproving or finding flaws with previous theories - and that is it's power.

Related article by Steven Pinker:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities