report on visit to American Atheists convention in Salt Lake City, April 2014

Report of visit to the Hilton on Friday 4-18-2014: Having not paid the requisite $300, we didn't have badges on. We walked around the cocktail hour socializers on the 2nd floor for about 5 minutes. Didn't see anyone we knew, except one person who didn't recognize us.

Didn't see any youtube celebrities.

Didn't see the bible beating protestors outside - they must have arrived later.

We also walked quickly through Comic Con down the street. No one checked for a pass, perhaps because I had my son in arm. We breezed through quickly and only spent about 1 minute inside a hall just seeing the overall layout. Overall it looked like a fun affair.

We thought the atheists would have even more fun it they visited the Salt Palace & Comic Con.

I imagine that attending national atheist conventions is an interesting experience. You get to see a few youtube celebs who you'd never otherwise see. You'll never see them again, and they'll never see you again. You'll also probably never see again 99% of the other people.

Not many kids present, if any, but we were only there for 5 minutes though that's also true.

In any case secular groups need to become more welcoming to having kids present at their meetings, if they expect more religious people to join up. I for one resent the Unitarian Universalist model of sending your kids away to some basement room while the adults stay behind, and that model should not be mirrored by secular / humanist / atheist groups, especially not in Utah.

http://www.atheists.org/convention2014/

"American Atheists fights to protect the absolute separation of religion from government and raise the profile of atheism in the public discourse."

"...unless you post a link to your own blog on our FB page - then you've gone too far. You're engaging in 'self promotion' by posting a link to your own blog, and we here at American Atheists cannot tolerate having speech present from others - speech which detracts from US!" ...reasonable paraphrasing & interpretation of their response.

Whatever. Just goes to know Groucho Marx said it best: I don't wish to belong to any group that would have me as a member.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Groucho_Marx

p.s. The policy at
http://www.atheists.org/convention2014/code-of-conduct
where they state "...This convention welcomes families with children and expects all participants to treat these families with courtesy and respect..."

Damn. That's a better statement than what the Exmormon Foundation stated on their website for their convention this year:

"...Due to the nature of the conference presentations and the serving of alcohol during the evenings, we have established a strict policy that no children are allowed except for nursing infants. In addition, since the presentations are recorded for our website, it's important that we control the ambient noise during the recordings. If you have any questions about this policy, please contact the Conference Chairman..."

http://web.archive.org/web/20130730052521/http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/conference2013.html

Hmmm. At least American Atheists states that their convention is supposed to be family friendly. That's a lot better stance than what the Exmormon Foundation does!

Why would a foundation meant to support former Mormons actively exclude those with children from attending? Strange, especially since in Mormon meetings they don't send their children away to some back room - during the main meeting, unlike some religions.

But, American Atheists is still too controlling on their own FB page. So no one's perfect.

Exmormon Foundation 2013 conference: anti-human, anti-children, and anti-life!

Regarding the Exmormon Foundation 2013 conference:
http://web.archive.org/web/20130730052521/http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/conference2013.html

"...Due to the nature of the conference presentations and the serving of alcohol during the evenings, we have established a strict policy that no children are allowed except for nursing infants. In addition, since the presentations are recorded for our website, it's important that we control the ambient noise during the recordings. If you have any questions about this policy, please contact the Conference Chairman..."

Your strict "no children" AKA no-normal-human policy is still present. As such we won't be going.

Suggest your foundation be led by people who realize that people who grow up in a children-friendly environment (eg: sacrament meetings where children are welcome) may expect to have a similar environment in their so-called "recovery-from-Mormonism."

I think we need recovery from recovery from Mormonism, if "recovery" means giving up our kids or leaving them behind.

The Salt Lake conference should be Salt-Lake-people-originated, and operated by people who remember what many years of life were like as a Mormon: Children were there, and that was actually a good thing. We didn't kick them out or send them away like Unitarians do, and we aren't going to do so as so-called "exmos" - not even if there's a "strict" policy requiring this.

Hey, I remember when Tal Bachman brought his several kids to the conference. No problem right?

Anyway, in my view the current leaders of the Exmormon Foundation have constructed a group which is essentially a cult of personality.

Utah is a kid friendly place, even for people recovering from recovery from Mormonism. We aren't from Portland, and we didn't grow up going to UU churches. Sending kids away is not natural for us, and neither is a "strict no child policy." Such a policy is anti-human and anti-life.

Jonathan
http://corvus.freeshell.org/psittacus/one/jonathan.html
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/

related post:
Atheist Family Values: Attention Exmormon Foundation: humans have children. And more on presuppositional apolegetics.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/07/atheist-family-values-attention.html

Exmormon Foundation: discriminating against children & their parents

Below are copies of post & replies in connection with a related post on here entitled Atheist Family Values: Attention Exmormon Foundation: humans have children. And more on presuppositional apolegetics.

Original post on 7/5/2013 on the exmormon email discussion group on yahoogroups:

Now that I actually have a child I'm finding that some secular  advocacy
groups either are actively not child friendly, or they are  passively so (by
inaction or just not thinking things  through).

Related blog post: http://goo.gl/4f1L2

Jonathan

Reply received from the vice president of the Exmormon Foundation:

On Fri, 5 Jul 2013 13:34:29 -0400 (EDT), Sue wrote:

>Jonathan -- if you will read carefully our position on children at the 
>Conference, I think you will find that it's pretty reasonable.  Because  we
>film and record the talks, and extraneous noise can seriously  affect that
>filming, we cannot have toddlers and older children in the  room.  We all have
>experienced times at other events (including Sac.  Mtg.!!)  when the noise
>from children has compromised a speaker.  The  serving of alcohol is another
>reason.  Nursing babies are allowed.
>
>Sue

----end of quote

And here's my reply as of July 14, 2013:


----quote beings

Howdy,

I'm aware of the reasoning behind the "strict no child policy" and I believe it's fundamentally flawed, for the following reasons:

1. Having people show up is more important than creating what some might perceive as youtube friendly multimedia presentations or podcasts.

2. Having a no child policy is discriminatory. In apartments, housing, work, and at exmormon conferences - and for the same reasons. It simply seeks to pretend and hope like a certain segment of the population does not exist, and should stay away.

3. Humans have children. Atheists & exmormons should have more of them and they should be encouraged to do so. Having a "strict no child policy" serves to directly counter that noble and highly valuable goal.

4. Children are part of life and part of valuing life, and they are the ones who will help us move forward.

So, when I was a 365 pound single guy with thick glasses living in my parent's basement, yes, policies which bar children didn't much affect me. When Steve Clark of Latter-Day Lampoon / the Salamander Society was running the Salt Lake conferences I don't believe he had a no child policy. But in any case, I've moved on from "needing" to have an association with a group which labels itself as "exmormon" per se. Naturalist. Humanist. Atheist. Skeptic. Enlightenment Values Advocate. These are a few of my favorite things. "Exmormon" is a bit too myopic, limited in scope.

It's unfortunate that participants in the current exmo conferences are little more than props in a presentation primarily targeted at the Internet.

I've seen groups go down hill before. A pet bird club in Salt Lake (Avicultural Society of Utah) was run into the ground by an overly controlling president. The other club here continues ok. Atheist groups have has similar splits and shenanigans, in Salt Lake, Portland, and Texas.

I guess the bottom line is that, if you're going to continue with this no child policy, you'll end up turning advocates into adversaries. So, as of this time I'm against support for attendance at the Exmormon Foundation conferences, and I suggest that other people also not support attendance. Instead, I'd suggest that people either attend local secular advocacy groups, or start a secular advocacy group of your own. But, if you really don't like children at your events, consider the morality of also excluding blacks, gays, and Mexicans from your events as well while you do so. As you pan your camera across the audience you'd perhaps want to ensure that no non-European faces appear, so as to not upset anyone - just as some people don't want to upset their youtube presentations with the presence of children.

I make this point just to remind people what category of activity discrimination against people with children fits into. Having a "strict no child policy" is in the same category as a strict no black person policy, a strict no gay person policy, and a strict no Mexican person policy.

Real people who show up are the most important.

I realize that in ultra-social-liberal culture there is the view that people should have less or no children. I don't agree with that view, and I think it's not only misguided it's destructive.

A child and his parents being present is more important than the audio quality on your online podcast.

A child and her parents being present is more important than whether you have a personal distaste for children.

A child and his parents being present is more important than whether people on youtube can hear 100% of what's being said by a speaker. Flesh & blood people who show up are the most important, and if they are not, then they are merely your unwary props.

We, who left the Mormon Church, are not your props. We're humans, and humans have babies.

So, don't get stuck in cults of personalities. That's one key thing we've learned. If you encounter a group with an overly controlling president, then don't spend too much time with that group. Be honest in what you say. Maybe found a group of your own. Find like minded people. That's my advise to people who leave the Mormon Church.

Not everything that happened in the Church was bad. Children are good and should be valued. A "strict no child policy" does not value them, nor does it honor the fact that humans have them.

I know you've done a lot of good work in the past. And when I was a fat bast*** virgin with thick glasses living in my parents basement, I didn't really think about "hey, where's the kids?" at the exmo conferences. But, now that I'm 100 pounds lighter, have a wife and a kid, and am living a more normal life I can now see the more true situation.

A group that meets in Salt Lake should have Salt Lake roots. And no group should have the right to discriminate against people with kids. It should be illegal, just as it is illegal to discriminate against black people, gay people, and etc.

Sincerely,

Jonathan

Atheist Family Values: Attention Exmormon Foundation: humans have children. And more on presuppositional apologetics.

Now that I actually have a child I'm finding that some secular advocacy groups either are actively not child friendly, or they are passively so (by inaction or just not thinking things through).

Attention Exmormon Foundation: humans have children. Having a "strict no child policy" is discriminatory.

Attention Atheists of Utah: voting for your leaders at a party which isn't child-friendly, that's also not good.

Perhaps we need a "family oriented" atheist or freethinker group in Utah.

Also more thoughts on Eric Hovind & Sye Ten Bruggencate. They essentially tell us: "We don't do Bible study with people who don't believe in the Bible." And they're also very keen to tell other people to shut up. Reference one (42:19 to 44:00 and 1:22:47), and two (35:49 to the end).

Ok, well, in response we could then well tell you: We won't chat about science & evolution with you, so long as you deny science, reasonable evidence and facts, and evolution.

Regarding the gotcha interviews Eric & Sye have conducted with apparently joint-toking college students: Yes, Eric & Sye, you may be able to get them to say "yeah, I don't know anything. You're so right." But once again you're not really being honest with your approach. What else is new.

More info:
Eric Hovind & Sye Ten Bruggencate. Kiss Jesus's Ass or Go to Hell. Presuppositionalism.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/07/eric-hovind-sye-ten-bruggencate-kiss.html

options in Utah for meeting with secular advocates

Here's info on local atheist groups in & near Salt Lake:

Salt Lake Valley Atheists. Meets the 1st Sunday at Sizzler on 4th South at 11:30AM. Kirk Robinson is the speaker this month. Eat if you wish, but it's not required. Come to the back room. For more info: http://nowscape.com/a

Many attendees are exmos. The group is purposefully politically liberal for what it's worth.

Another group, Atheists of Utah, has coffee chats every Thursday. More info on that:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/atheistsofutah/
or
http://www.meetup.com/aofuslc/#calendar

Atheists of Utah is a 501C3 type group and so is "officially" politically neutral, but attendees can have whatever views they wish & debate & discuss freely. The coffee chats tend to be a churning type of experience, and they can be fun if you decide to simply talk to your neighbor. Location Mestizo's Coffeehouse, 7-9:30PM. More info on the website.

The above groups, and this group, are members of UCOR, the Utah Coalition of Reason. http://reasonutah.org/

The yearly Exmormon Foundation conferences in Salt Lake have never had a "Christian" agenda per se - mostly a secular one of learning to live life after being in the circle of the cult. http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/

There are two Unitarian Universalist congratulations in the Salt Lake valley and some former mos attend. My own personal satisfaction level with each congregation has varied & wavered over time. From a cultural perspective the meetings & layout are more similar to Catholic & Anglican services rather than Mormon. The kids are, for example, sent away to rooms instead of being allowed to stay with their parents. Also they tend to have a paid preacher - who does admittedly tend to be very socially liberal, but still it's usually the same person speaking every week. The UU's in general have some taboos about being truly honest about he problems with religion though, and so sadly they have their heads in the sand as much as other religions to some extent. But nevertheless they are a socializing option you could consider if you wish. My further concerns about UUism: http://tinyurl.com/beqls4b

There is one or two decidedly "Christian" exmo groups locally.
Example: http://www.meetup.com/Salt-Lake-City-Ex-Mormon-Meetup

My view on such things is that people are unfortunately jumping from one cult to another. That's my view, and I won't belong to any group that would seek to censor my trying to speak my mind. I try not to be a cultural relativist, so I could say "if that what floats your boat, so be it" but I won't because doing so makes me feel bad.

Here again is a more full list of groups that ARE stronger advocates for secularism and the fruits of the Enlightenment: http://reasonutah.org/groups/

Try them all - as on that site. And don't forget that in some there is a weekly or monthly churning. So if irritating people show up one week, maybe next time you'll find more interesting people - or you could be the interesting person yourself.