Exmormon Foundation 2013 conference: anti-human, anti-children, and anti-life!

Regarding the Exmormon Foundation 2013 conference:
http://web.archive.org/web/20130730052521/http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/conference2013.html

"...Due to the nature of the conference presentations and the serving of alcohol during the evenings, we have established a strict policy that no children are allowed except for nursing infants. In addition, since the presentations are recorded for our website, it's important that we control the ambient noise during the recordings. If you have any questions about this policy, please contact the Conference Chairman..."

Your strict "no children" AKA no-normal-human policy is still present. As such we won't be going.

Suggest your foundation be led by people who realize that people who grow up in a children-friendly environment (eg: sacrament meetings where children are welcome) may expect to have a similar environment in their so-called "recovery-from-Mormonism."

I think we need recovery from recovery from Mormonism, if "recovery" means giving up our kids or leaving them behind.

The Salt Lake conference should be Salt-Lake-people-originated, and operated by people who remember what many years of life were like as a Mormon: Children were there, and that was actually a good thing. We didn't kick them out or send them away like Unitarians do, and we aren't going to do so as so-called "exmos" - not even if there's a "strict" policy requiring this.

Hey, I remember when Tal Bachman brought his several kids to the conference. No problem right?

Anyway, in my view the current leaders of the Exmormon Foundation have constructed a group which is essentially a cult of personality.

Utah is a kid friendly place, even for people recovering from recovery from Mormonism. We aren't from Portland, and we didn't grow up going to UU churches. Sending kids away is not natural for us, and neither is a "strict no child policy." Such a policy is anti-human and anti-life.

Jonathan
http://corvus.freeshell.org/psittacus/one/jonathan.html
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/

related post:
Atheist Family Values: Attention Exmormon Foundation: humans have children. And more on presuppositional apolegetics.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/07/atheist-family-values-attention.html

Chinese Garden in Salt Lake City /// Teabagger chumps of Koch brothers - government shutdown

Commentary on two topics:

Topic 1: Rich traitorous bastard teabagger engineered government shutdown conspiracy revealed.

Topic 2: The Chinese garden in International Peace Gardens, Jordan Park, Salt Lake City is being hijacked by anti-China Taiwanese expats.

Video:


Links and more references:

On topic 1: The government shutdown, and the traitoris Koch brothers & their tea bagging chump de facto followers...

A Federal Budget Crisis Months in the Planning
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a-federal-budget-crisis-months-in-the-planning.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Shutdown coverage fails Americans
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/10/1/reporting-governmentshutdowndemocracy.html

The 5 creepiest things about how the Koch brothers engineered the shutdown
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/207311/the-5-creepiest-things-about-how-the-koch-brothers-engineered-the-shutdown/

Conservative Plot To Defund Obamacare Exposed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQmGqCOwy2U

On topic 2:

United Nations resolution 2758 - why Taiwan is not a member of the U.N.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_2758

Legal status of Taiwan - in dispute:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_Taiwan#Arguments_for_United_States_sovereignty_claims

Can you find Taiwan on a map? When someone says the word China, does Taiwan come to mind? Probably not! See the letter I sent to Salt Lake City on this issue, and my linked to video at the top of this post for more details...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
To the Salt Lake City Parks Dept.
Date: Mon, Sep 30, 2013
Subject: no Chinese flag in Peace Garden

Hello,

I've noticed there is no flag for the People's Republic of China in the International Peace Garden in Jordan Park.

Is the purpose of the garden to "foster world peace?" Some people may well want the government of Taiwan to be the "official" government of the Chinese mainland. But no matter how much we may want that & wish for that, it's unlikely to happen. And using the peace garden here as a means of
"sticking it in the eye" of the current, actual, and real government of China, is rather inappropriate.

Does the U.S. need to "make peace" with Taiwan? Hardly.

You're brave enough to have a flag for Vietnam in there. Perhaps there's a plot for Russia. But you can't handle having a flag for the People's Republic of China?

When diplomats from China visit Utah, do they ever drop by the Peace Gardens? Are they confronted with the Taiwanese flag there? But when they go searching for the flag from their country, can they find it? No.

Anyway, I know the people in Taiwan are really quite angry with the government in Beijing. But it seems to me that using the Peace Garden as a platform for their anger doesn't really "foster peace."

And so, your garden, our "peace" garden (since it is a public place) is not really and truly a garden for peace.

Maybe fly BOTH flags in the Chinese garden - both for Taiwan and for regular China. Maybe if you did that the Chinese garden there would be for ALL of China, and not just for an angry subset who want to overthrow the gov in Beijing.

A private group has essentially hijacked the garden. Yes they made it look nice, and I know it was just redone. That's nice. But Taiwan is NOT the government of China, and hand wringing by right-wing McCarthyite politicians in Utah, or even by Taiwanese expats, isn't going to change that.

So, for your/our Chinese garden I ask that you have a flag for China, the People's Republic of China, there.

We can be for freedom for Taiwan without discounting the fact that the People's Republic even exists in the first place. China, the People's Republic thereof, is here to stay. And your garden shouldn't deny that fact, or serve as a means of "sticking it" to the government in Beijing. However noble that cause may be, it's an inappropriate antithetical action by a supposed "peace garden."

My wife is from mainland China, and we were married in the Chinese garden. My wife is not from Taiwan. Maybe you can have a Taiwan garden in the Garden, but as far as we're concerned we were married in the CHINESE garden, not in an exclusively-Taiwanese-centered one. My wife found the presence of the Taiwanese flag and the absence of the Chinese one strange, and an indication that "Americans don't like China."

I agree that the current situation is divisive. Do we have a "peace garden" here or what? Does the City of Salt Lake want America to have peace with REAL CURRENT ACTUAL China, or not? Are you being ALL INCLUSIVE of everyone from China by solely flying the Taiwanese flag? I don't think so.

Perhaps your actions in this case are even, dare I say, racist. My wife is essentially being discriminated against by the actions of your garden organizers. She's not from Taiwan, and you do claim to have a Chinese garden, right? So where's the flag for China in the Chinese garden?

Sincerely,

Jonathan

-------------------end of quote

Further request for help:

In the Peace Garden in Salt Lake (Jordan Park) there's no flag flying for the People's Republic of China. In the "Chinese garden" there's a Taiwanese flag, but the last time I checked Taiwan is not China. Would you like to help organize having a garden in our Peace Garden which either a.) represents all of China and has NO flag flying, or b.) represents the People's Republic of China, with PRC flag flying?

Can a PRC expat have pride in the country they grew up in? Sure! Why not? Taiwan is not China, nor will it ever be China, not even if the PRC becomes more democratic and open and so on. The PRC is here to stay, regardless of whether it becomes more open and free in the future or not. And Hong Kong is a good roadmap perhaps. Hong Kong is part of the PRC also, not Taiwan.

It's too bad that our so-called peace garden is being used as a political football. In our public garden there's a flag for Vietnam, Russia, and so on. Why not for the PRC? Let me know if you want to help...

comments on Deseret News crusade against porn

I can understand what lies at the root of hysterical crusades against porn.

Is "porn addiction" ruining your marriage? Stop taking a highly fear based approach. Stop requiring your kids confess about masturbation. Tell your husband he doesn't have to 100% "give up" porn. Instead tell him "I love you and want to help you be happy."

Watching vids on occasion is one thing. Spending many hours at it, or engaging in real time chats are problematic. Yet: 100% intolerance also goes too far.

Certain types of "porn" can be useful in marriage, in that it can be educational, or create a "spark" to help get things going. If a guy is spending too much time with porn maybe he's upset with how controlling, distant, or threatening you are.

Sex is natural. The "natural man" is a friend to "god," *not* an enemy. The only "god" worth worshiping is sex. Through sex comes love, and life, and the only immortality we will ever experience.

Recently I found "Warren Farrell Speaks in Toronto: Transforming the Boys Crisis" and at time index 1:33:00 he speaks about porn.

Let's examine what human history & human nature show, and move forward in love.

My view on Silverman: He's no Hitchens, or Dawkins, or Harris, or Dennett in a debate

My views on David Silverman: He's no Hitchens, or Dawkins, or Harris, or Dennett in a debate. He comes across as a bit of a noob at times, and his group can be rather pedantic, controlling (censoring atheists who aren't their leadership), and assuming to much - that they represent "atheists" generally - the universal umbrella group as much as they can make themselves, while at the same time being top-down and top-heavy. As for Barker and FFRF: He's a bit more reasonable.

As a non-Jew I've always viewed the Star of David as a religious symbol. I would agree that the monument should feature symbols that represent all of the affected groups, if it's going to have symbols at all.

Separately, someone should make a monument to all the boys whose penises were raped as a result of Jewish culture. Certainly circ is no justification for what Hitler did. But no culture is perfect or particularly more noble.

Why, why, why we have to fight against all cults of personality...

Hey Mormon Missionaries: Where is the Lamanite DNA? Holding onto our values after leaving religion.

Comments about video:

Mr. Beeb is becoming more smart every day. We may go to the Utah State Fair again this weekend. They have some interesting art & paintings.

Yesterday during my lunch walk I got approached by bike by a couple of Mormon missionaries. They started with Moroni 10:3-5 that if you just pray & get a feeling that Mormonism is true that you will become convinced. They asked me how come people in the middle of Africa can get sucked into Mormonism. I told them that this happens because of a failing with how the human brain works. Next they told me that only when science & religion work together can both move forward. I told them there's been no Lamanite DNA found. They said that there's been Jewish DNA found in American Indians. However this is from a LATER migration - AFTER Columbus. Scientists can tell when a given genetic influence happened by genetic drift. Google T.G. Schurr, and also "Where is the Lamanite DNA," and also Simon Southerton for more info on all this. They ended with "you just have to have faith." I responded with: I think we need to rely on human nature, and try to value the good parts of human nature while curtailing the bad.

I can help you leave the Mormon Church, while holding onto your values.

Cultures which have had ZERO to do with your current or former religion have plenty of values! THAT'S the key thing both the ultra-rightie and the ultra-leftie should learn.

IMG 2762 9-13-2013 7:30am

Agent Orange, Syria, and Vietnam - yes they are linked

I didn't have anything to do with Kennedy, LBJ, or Nixon's war in Vietnam. Sesame Street & Mr. Rogers were the main things happening in my life then.

Amazingly the damage from that "old" war is still happening:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23632245

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/10/world/asia/us-moves-to-address-agent-orange-contamination-in-vietnam.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/22/3514489/4-decades-after-war-ended-agent.html

http://www.civilbeat.com/voices/2013/09/06/19831-remember-agent-orange-the-us-own-chemical-weapons-history/

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100235050/spare-us-the-hypocrisy-over-chemical-weapons-america-what-about-agent-orange/

WTF indeed.

Anyway it's not exactly hypocritical for new leaders who had zero to do with past sins to try & stop other world leaders from using chemical weapons. But it's more than a little bit hypocritical to not offer direct help & compensation to CURRENT victims of agent orange in Vietnam - while at the same time denying that agent orange was a chemical weapon as such (intended to hurt people - what bullshit).

Anyway, as for Syria, I'm still in the "wait" camp. It's not evil to fight against evil, as long as you're willing to fight for it at home and abroad. Will Obama & John Kerry be fighting for recognition of agent orange as a chemical weapon that did hurt people, and that is continuing to hurt people? Will they be fighting to jail all those who purported this act (the use of agent orange) during America's not so cold war?

-------------

Copy of letter shared with national leaders:

Regarding Syria, as soon as we've admitted that agent orange use in Vietnam was illegal by both U.S. and international standards, and as soon as we start compensating past & current victims of agent orange in Vietnam & elsewhere, only then should we consider action against Syria.

The people who authorized agent orange use in Vietnam should be in jail, in my view. Children in Vietnam are continuing to be deformed.

So, we've got our own chemical weapon use history. Let's own up to what we've done as a country before we strike out at another for supposedly similar sins.

Syria is a messy business right now. We don't have to be the "air force for al qaeda," and it's unclear whether the government there used the weapons. But even if they did, we should own up to our own past mistakes fully & completely before striking out at another country for similar sins.

Star Trek; Sneaky Biology; Built in human morality; Fun includes work; Can I join your church?

Commentary on Star Trek Enterprise.

On the new Star Trek movie franchise: Not Star Trek - should instead be called "Kiddie Trek" or "Millennials Trek."

The original Star Trek is rather like Shakespeare. Should we change the stories of Shakespeare? No. Changing the basic story lines of the original story lines is not what they do with Shakespeare & it's not what people should do with Star Trek.

Roddenberry wrote cowboy stories. We need cowboys in space. If we use robots forever, what happens when the sun gets 10% hotter & the sun boils off? The childless liberal hippie may well be extinct, but the "breeders" won't be. Childless liberals get what they want: no place on the great mandala.

Biology can sneak up on everyone, left & right. Thank goodness.

See what birth control does now: We have people who think that the child-free life is just as good as one with children. Catholics have a point. It's not what's in the Bible - it's basic human morality, nature, instincts, and survival.

In Mormonism & other religions they teach you to be afraid of sexual thoughts.

If you're a Mormon wife, maybe you shouldn't wear your temple garments at night, or even during the day. Wearing them interferes with your ability to be intimate with your husband. No wonder he's looking at porn so much even though he's married to you.

Religion can fuck you up, but religion is a natural phenomenon. So we have to separate the lies from the truth. That's why I like Bart Ehrman. He helps separate the lies from the truth.

You have can you religion & your values. You can be pro-life, and wary of birth control. You can be wary of the homosexual agenda. Why? Because you can tie into natural normal human morality & human nature. You can use your brain to evaluate the outcomes of various activities & thought processes.

You don't have to believe in the lies of your religion to hold onto your values. True humanist values! True naturalist values! Being natural includes having stigmas for destructive behaviors - that's the key epiphany that I've had.

We don't have to lie to say the truth.

Can I join your church? If I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, but I think there's some valid & good human values in the Bible & in other books that humans have written?

Humans write human stuff. Some of the groups that have Bart Ehrman debating, I think they actually believe the guy. They can't move along the road because they're afraid that without their god everything is permitted. They look at the ultra-leftie liberals & thin this. But, you can codify your values without having to believe in lies. Examine things objectively and make judgements. Judging can be highly valuable.

Remember the Great Mandala song by Peter, Paul, and Mary. "...Win or lose now you must choose now..."

Fun includes work, hippie, and not just staring at your own naval all your life.

September 4, 2013 7:37am

Miley Cyrus and Breastfeeding: Don't censor either!

Part of an image shared on facebook in response to the Miley Cyrus incident:

The original facebook poster added words on the bottom of the image stating how they were outraged that the picture on the right was reportedly sometimes censored on facebook, and yet the image on the left was widely shared with no problem.

Well, facebook is no panacea. Here's my response though to both photos being combined and posted together:

Hey liberal: The first picture leads to the second picture - and it should!

Hey conservative: Don't be afraid of either picture!

I only barely knew about the VMA's before hearing about the incident on the BBC.

The apparent wildness of sex leads to the beauty of a child. Whodathunkit. It's not one or the other - it's both intertwined.

We apparently need sex ed for both sides of the social & political spectrum...

Hey liberals: have kids - it's a good thing!

Hey conservatives: Sex is fun, and it should be. Sex can free you from your made up gods. And: don't be too hung about about masturbation or oral sex. And if you're a Mormon woman, stop wearing your garnments during sex.

Ok...

Miley Cyrus, You go girl!

In the wake of the reaction to Miley Cyrus's recent performance at the VMA's, here's my response:

You go girl!

Performance: http://goo.gl/l2jjVy

Reaction:
https://www.google.com/search?q=miley+cyrus+reaction

Mika Brzezinski's idiotic, myopic, and petty response:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7cDq8ajWYA

The Young Turks more reasonable response:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy4y0C4GmYU

Miley Cyrus is sexual -- get over it
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/26/opinion/schwartz-miley-cyrus/

Racist? Hardly. Ultra-lefties are some of the most racist people you'll ever meet.

Miley Cyrus & Robin Thicke: white women & men can jump after all. We're not all like Napoleon Dynamite.

Is Hannah Montana dead? Hardly. When a girl grows up into a woman & discovers what her coochie can do, she can put behind her the black & white saccharin false niceties of the past. The world of Disney is false, fake, saccharin, a lie, and a deception. Fun for a while, but still false & fake.

No wonder the girl did what she did, growing up and working as a Disney kid. And good on her! Remember the film Pleasantville, when people turned from being black & white into color? That's what happens when a human comes of age. Realizing the power, majesty, and wonder of what you've got right between your legs - that's the key question of your & all our lives. What will you do with that power?

So, in the short term, Miley can & should shake her booty and her coochie around all she wants. In the long term, I hope that she settles down & has kids. I hope that she doesn't get sucked into the selfish dead end childless culture on the left.

No, she isn't a tramp or a slut or a whore. She's yet another female human who's come of age, and discovered the world isn't what Disney claimed at all, nor should it be.

Don't kiss the ass of some made up god or preacher! You've got all the power you need in YOU to move forward - right between your legs. What you do with that power in the long term is the key question...

Further thoughts:
Families Can Be Together Forever... Through Evolution!
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/08/families-can-be-together-forever.html

Atheism & having kids: the right to choose to be a zero
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2011/11/atheism-having-kids-right-to-choose-to.html

8-30-2013 7:41am

Church History museum; Chinese family values; atheist & humanist groups are religions too.

Commentary on our visit to the LDS Church History Museum and to Temple Square. We saw the new Boy Scout exhibit at the museum, the golden plates, the angel Macaroni (I mean Moroni), and so on.

Built in human morality fully exists within religions, and also in less religious societies like China. How can we separate the useful facts of human morality in religion from the lies? It's hard work.

Mormonism is a modern cult - a cult in a suit and a tie. But new atheist and humanist groups are religions also - where you have lies you cannot question, and where you have to be politically correct for fear of not being a "genuine" atheist or humanist.

Religions do have some good ideas, but you wouldn't realize that unless you: a.) spent several years checking out all the hippie crap, and b.) going to gay bars & parties with your gay nephew, and c.) making note of how a convicted pedophile was gladly accepted back into your nephew's friend group after leaving prison, and d.) going to Portland and seeing what people do there via an Alice in Wonderland style journey, and e.) marrying a woman from China - where they never heard of Joseph Smith and very little of Jesus. Also making note of how your gay uncle died of AIDS leaving his regular normal family with no father will help expand your perspective. So, in spite of their bullshit, the Mormon & Catholic churches do have some very good ideas and ideals.

Why do religions have to support themselves with lies? Even the atheistic versions of religions have lies? Lies about the negative impacts of the ultra-left agenda.

The crazy ideas are mixed in with some good and useful truths. It's all integrated together. So, how can we separate out useful fact from harmful fiction? Perhaps one key way is this: refusing to be politically correct!

Maybe China is showing us the way: family values! They don't believe in Jesus or Joseph Smith, and yet they have a great deal of good valuable down home family values. They aren't perfect either, but they do value family.

But: Shhh! In atheist & humanist groups have to be very quiet about what you really think - and so such groups are religion also. So watch out!

Reject political correctness and embrace family values.

8-27-2013 7:32am

hiking to Fehr Lake & other explorations - July 6, 2013

Beeb crawling; exploring along the Mirror Lake Highway - Provo River Falls; Fehr Lake trail; Coco is with us (male Timneh African Grey parrot).

July 6, 2013
Times of clips included in the film:
8 857 857 1023 1029 1033 1103 1138 1144 1149 1233 1325 1335 1335 1342 1342

Yelena Isinbayeva - You Go Girl! -- Questioning Hippie Dogma.

On the film "Plan 10 From Outer Space."

Thoughts on Yelena Isinbayeva: you go girl! Thanks!

News reference: "Russian pole vault champ Yelena Isinbayeva condemns homosexuality, supports new anti-gay law"
http://goo.gl/0dQPXO

Related comments about Yelena's actions:

Courageous. Wonderful. Thanks Yelena and Russia. The same could be said of China perhaps - a similar cultural & very *human* understanding of the situation.

Children are, after all, the future, and a couple who can naturally have them together is of most value...

Calls for "shame on Yelena" you'll notice, are coming from the de-facto religion of the cultural left in the West. They have their own dogmatic religion, heresy trials, witch hunts, elders, and core unquestionable dogmas. But theirs is a religion (culture - meme set) which doesn't value life. Instead they dogmatically value relativism. But not everything is equal.

Thanks Russia. Thanks China. And thanks to many black people in America who also have the courageous view that we should be valuing life by honoring where it comes from, honoring how we all got here in the first place, and valuing the fact that children are our only path to real flesh & blood immortality.

---end of quote

Nationally led atheist (humanist, naturalist, Unitarian Universalist) groups tend to be centered around the political and social ideology of their leadership.

Questioning the dominant paradigm - isn't that what rock music was supposed to be about?

Can we question the new dominant paradigm in the west: Hippie Dogma.

Here are some hippie dogmas worth questioning:

Hippie dogma number 1: Whatever you do is up to you - it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Hippie dogma number 2: All cultures are equal. You cannot question another person's culture.

Hippie dogma number 3: The "native" people are very noble indeed.

When you grow up, you can realize that all the hippie dogma is a bunch of bullshit - 80% of it. 20% is ok.

Compassion for your fellow man is ok, & trying to keep people from having to go to church just so they can get a meal - yes that's ok too.

I like art museums, pretty rocks, and incense. But poor & religious people should be able to have as many kids as they damn well please. Don't let hippie dogma make YOU a zero or a near zero on the great mandala!

8-20-13 731am

More info:

advocacy for having children:
http://goo.gl/BVCy4u
and
http://goo.gl/rCtjTm

American Indians: No group of humans are uniquely more noble
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/03/american-indians-no-group-of-humans-are.html

Thoughts on hyphenated Americans, racism, and cynicism
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/08/thoughts-on-hyphenated-americans-racism.html

Islamofactia, Islamotruthia, Homofactia, Homotruthia - and the Black Atheists of Atlanta

The page:
"Nothing Atheist About “Real” Black Atheists"
http://spiceislandatheist.blogspot.com/2013/04/nothing-atheist-about-real-black.html

My response:

I can see why black atheists in Atlanta are inclined to be nationalistic. I don't agree with them that every aspect of European culture is inherently evil. However listening to their views helped me take a step back & realize that many atheist & humanist groups in America are dogmatically, politically, and socially ultra-left - and de facto religions themselves as a result. If you find yourself to be an atheist who's not socially ultra-left, you will be kicked out of such groups. So, the new atheist groups are now in my view religions in and of themselves.

Given enough education about Islam, and one may advocate for Islamofactia and Islamotruthia, rather than being guilty of "Islamophobia." The same can go for homosexuality. "Homophobia?" In my view it's more like homofactia and homotruthia - when given enough knowledge.

Political correctness & towing the party line IS a part of the atheist "movement," and thus we don't have rationalism or skepticism, - instead we've got just another religion.

Can you question your dogma? The atheist may well want to accept all of the "yes you can do that" precepts in all cultures, but they're rather loath & unfortunately wary to realize that sometimes there's also value in having stigmas associated with destructive human behaviors.

It's taken me a LONG time to realize this, after taking an Alice in Wonderland style journey through some "let it all hang out" type activities, and having a gay uncle who died of AIDS leaving his regular family with no father, and a gay nephew who spends his life in petty dead end pursuits (eg: posting near naked pictures of himself on facebook & near constant talk of sex with "boys," plus he & his friend's acceptance of a convicted pedophile back into the gay community after he was was released from prison).

So, given enough knowledge, even a liberal can wise up and realize that not everything is equal... Black Atheists of Atlanta helped me realize this, along with my wife who comes from another country - where they never heard of Mormonism and very very little of Christianity.

Daniel Dennett showed us that religion is a natural phenomenon - a realization that can cut both ways.

So, human nature & human morality can be expressed in religion. But just because a given religion says something is bad - that doesn't automatically mean they are wrong. They can merely be expressing a key part of human morality & human nature.

don't throw out the baby with the bathwater: hard work for an ex-religionist

The guy is right:

"...So who is to blame? The breakdown of families, the pernicious promotion of single motherhood as a desirable state, the decline of domestic life so that even shared meals are a rarity, have all contributed importantly to the condition of the young underclass..."

"Years of liberal dogma have spawned a generation of amoral, uneducated, welfare dependent, brutalised youngsters." in the Daily Mail.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater: hard work for an ex-religionist. But examining how other cultures work who have zero association with your former religion can help re-center and re-root yourself.

many atheist groups ARE religions: gay marriage & liberal dogma

Example of the new de facto religion present among some atheist groups:

"Genuine Atheists and Illegitimate Christians Support Gay Rights."
...by Minnesota Atheists

Shaming. Fear-mongering. Belief Maintenance. Do people in China read the Christian Bible? Not much at all. How about in Russia? Not much. Also, once again, since religion is a natural phenomenon human morality CAN be and IS expressed in religion.

Video response then more commentary:

Quote of comments posted on the Minnesota Atheists page:

Sounds like a religion to me - the religion of the left. "You're not a 'true' atheist or humanist if you don't agree with 100% of the homosexual agenda." Indeed.

Dogma. Heresy. Excommunication. Sounds like a religion. Since religion is a natural phenomenon perhaps we need a new term. How about: "Meme set backed up by dogmas, heresy trials, witch hunts, and virtual or de facto excommunication courts."

Having examined the gay "movement" first hand for several years via a gay nephew & an uncle who died of AIDS, I can attest to the fact that it's rather highly unsavory & petty. It's also, in my view, a "death cult" - part of the more general "death cult" of the left, which embraces other views such as how concerns about overpopulation should mean YOU should not have any kids. A religious dogma that leaves you childless - sounds like a bad one to me.

...speaking as an atheist, and an enlightened humanist & naturalist.

Humanism / naturalism / atheism / science & Enlightenment advocacy does not mean embracing the homosexual agenda 100%, nor the other dogmas of the liberal death cult - not to me, as a human who values life, how we got here, and not wasting the little speck of time we have here.

Examples of atheist groups that are actually religions:

Minnesota Atheists
American Atheists
American Humanist Association
Atheist Community of Austin
Center For Inquiry

We already know Unitarian Univeralism is a religion. It's just that these other groups have now become one also. Leftist religion - still a religion nevertheless, with unquestionable dogmas, elders, and de facto heresy & excommunication trials.

The "gay marriage" question has become a watershed issue, showing not which destructive outlier human behavior "deserves" the "right" to indoctrinate all and suck children into the cult of homosexuality, but rather, to show which supposedly "objective," "skeptical," "free thinking" groups actually, in fact, have any real connection to reason, objectivity, skepticism, free thought, and what could be called: honest true enlightened humanism and naturalism.

Human groups have taboos against destructive behaviors for some damn good reasons. This fact seems largely lost on the naive leftist new-atheism-religionists.

According to a political compass I'm still a leftie in some respects, largely on economic and social welfare issues (eg: the dole, social security, and advocacy for single payer healthcare). On abortion I think it should be discouraged, but legal before viability. On gay marriage I'm against it. Contractual allowance via civil unions - maybe. But marriage's primary focus is and should remain children and continuing the human species. Homosexual sex is inherently non-reproductive, and homosexual culture is generally speaking destructive & petty. Children should not generally speaking be exposed to such culture.

Still a leftie?

Well, since I don't agree with gay marriage, according to the lefties I've spoken with I'm now in the same camp as the ultra-right. Ok, well, on that issue maybe I am - and maybe that fact speaks to the bogusness of the above scale. Maybe "post-modern?" But reportedly post-modernists agree with gay marriage. So it's all rather too simplistic. How about: Honest human?

Take in enough data & maybe you'll change your mind. An honest human would & should do that.

more references and links:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013_08_01_archive.html

8-19-2013 4:44pm

Embrace life: What will you do with your speck of time here?

Advocacy for a enlightened naturalism, humanism, atheism, and memetics ROOTED in human nature, flourishing, life, honest science & history, and in the revolutionary concept that because religion is a natural phenomenon, many of their stigmas & taboos have damn good reasons for being there.

TheGreat Mandala - taking your place on it.

"Liberal values" reportedly includes advocacy for "diversity," but only a diversity of acceptance. What if a given culture has good human-centered reasons for a given taboo or stigma? Does your advocacy for "diversity" include allowing around you people who believe that certain human activities very much need "shame" attached to them? Examples: adultery; wild sex with many partners with no commitment; sex with underage people; and even, heaven forbid, sex with people of the same sex. What if another human culture draws the line of acceptable behavior at a different place than you? Will you welcome into your "big tent" of supposed diversity such cultures & people?

The word "bigot" implies a lack of knowledge. But we have knowledge. Cultures which ascribe shame to some or most all of the activities mentioned above (adultery, homosexuality, etc.) have knowledge - human knowledge about impacts. Belief in some god is just the WAY some humans otherwise preserve  ideas which offer protection from harm & damage, and it's simply the WAY they promote life. But, come to find out (and this is also a revelation for the religionist also), *humans who have no exposure* to the Christian Bible, or the Koran, or the Torah, ALSO have stigmas & taboos regarding the exact same destructive behaviors you're concerned about!

So, we're not talking about Biblical morality, or religious morality - rather, for these widely shared stigmas & taboos, we're talking about HUMAN morality! How's that supposed "humanist" & "naturalist" in America? Can you accept the key concept that being human does, for good reason, include having stigma for behaviors which you currently want to advocate for - for "equal rights?" But not every human behavior is worthy of respect. And it's not bigoted to say this - it's just the facts. Human facts. Natural facts. Human animal facts.

CAN an atheist, an ex-conservative-religionist, look back and realize that at least some of what they were taught while in a cult was in fact stuff rooted in human nature (& therefore worth considering & valuing), as opposed to stuff that was associated with the lies that were in their former religion?

There will be push-back from people who are still very angry at being lied to. I am still angry about this also. But, having examined countries who have zero do to with the religion of my youth, when I examine what THEY do, it makes me more fully realize that the list of taboos in a given religion CAN actually be beneficial to human survival, thriving, and happiness.

14 billion years of evolution by natural selection. You're here. You have one little speck of time. What are you going to do with your time here?

August 19, 2013 7:57am

Family Values Atheism: path to immortality: children; religion is a natural phenomenon - it cuts both ways; thanks black atheists of Atlanta

Family Values Atheism:

Religion is a natural phenomenon - it cuts both ways

The dogmas of a religion can actually be natural

Concern about non-reproductive sex can be natural

Maybe a children need a mommy & a daddy

Maybe if you spend your life in a non-reproductive hole you'll be unhappy as a result

Why I've become more socially conservative: several years of observation of the gay community.

Thanks black atheists of Atlanta, for introducing some much needed skepticism into the "atheist movement."

Bad ideas & dogma can come from anywhere, including the left.

On the left we have dogma, elders, inquisitions, heresy trials, and witch hunts.

Go question liberal dogma in a group of liberals and see what happens.

Excommunication trials - only in Mormonism? No, liberals will happily do these as well.

The only real immortality we can ever experience comes via having children. I'm for questioning liberal dogma that draws us away from that. True & honest & enlightened naturalism, atheism, and humanism means this to me.

Can we open a "Friends of the Black Atheists of Atlanta" branch here?

Maybe if you work to be an ex-gay, maybe that's a good thing. Since I spend several years closely observing gay culture, I feel the need to mention this. Also ready heresy trials will quickly happen if you question this key liberal dogma point.

http://narth.com
http://pfox.org/default.html

Without god is everything permitted? If you listen to the liberals you might think so. But no, we're talking about humans. Humans have built in morality. Without god not everything is permitted - even if the liberals might think so, or act like this is true.

If you force yourself to believe a certain thing - a more deep part of human nature, that can make you unhappy. And being in a dead-end non-reproductive loop can, indeed, make you and everyone unhappy.

Tying into 14 billion years of evolution, directly, by having children is of value. Immortality - great value. More valuable than chasing your tail all your life, and trying to force others to state that your "choice" is just as valuable as any other choice.

Not all things are equal. Not all choices are worthy of respect.

Family values atheism - thanks black Atheists of Atlanta for reminding us that it's possible to have these words exist together. And, we can also thank the people in other countries who aren't members of the American-liberal-dogmatic church - people who may value family over forced relativism. How's that for naturalism & humanism? Examining what people *actually do* and making note that sometimes there's damn good reasons for stigma to be assigned to certain activities. A very hard thing for an ex-religionist to realize.

If you're not careful, a liberal-dogma-questioning epiphany may cause you, Mr. & Mrs. Leftie, to be subjected to a liberal heresy trial. But, you jumped out of one church, you may as well be prepared to jump out of another.

Free speech. Free thought. Freedom from religion, on the right and on the left. And thankfully we're human, so without god not everything is permitted - even if the lefties may de facto act like it is.

8-16-2013 7:38am

updated religious and political views... an atheist moderate / conservative

Here's an update on my religious and political views:

Religion: Atheist

The only gods worth worshiping are love, sex, life, and children.

Make a difference. Do something useful. Think about legacy. Don't be a drunk bum who stares at your own belly button all your life. Find someone else's to stare at instead.

Straight pride is life affirming, and worth valuing and supporting. You wouldn't be here if it weren't for straight pride and dare I say straight sex.

I've observed first hand:

1. A gay uncle who died of AIDS and left his hetero family without a father.

2. A gay nephew who lives and incredibly childish, petty, and stunted life.

3. Homosexual culture at many gay parties and bars.

4. The acceptance of one pedophile (abused 12-16 year olds) into the gay community after being released from prison. Constant talk in gay groups using the term "boy," and an apparent desire on their part to lower the age of consent.

5. A sister who has been sucked into the liberal death cult, where she believes she should have no children because of overpopulation. She's also living a petty and stunted life.

So several years of first hand observation & exploration has yielded this result.

Questioning all dogmas, at first. Initially take a step back. Examining all cultures. Seeing what is at the heart of human nature. Don't take the liberal view or side just by default. Questioning that side also.

Then, here's the hard part: Realize that:

Religion is a natural phenomenon. So not every tenant of a religion is necessarily bad. Some tenants ARE fully natural and rather good, both for the individual, and for the community.

The ONLY PATH to true flesh & blood immortality is reproduction. A mommy. A daddy. Good old fashioned straight sex and marriage. Damn right!

Not everything is equal. Make a difference. Share your memes if you can, but, if in the end you fail to also share your genes, that is too bad for you and for humanity.

Do what you can while you can to not live a stunted life. Ok? If doing so requires taking drastic action (like looking far and wide for a compatible mate - DO IT!). Don't let the liberal meme set leave you as a virtual zero on the great mandala.

Political views: moderate

Socially moderate to conservative.

After several years of first hand observation of "gay culture" I've come to conclude that it's one which is stunted, petty, childish, sad, and a dead end. The ex-gay movement is something worth checking out, if you find that you're either attracted to people of the same sex, or if you've been sucked into that culture.

Economically liberal, with the admission that too many people are on the dole (visit your average social security office on any day to see the status of things). But, the state sponsored dole is better than the Church or the street.

Hawk regarding Islam.

Christopher Hitchens fan.

Wary of cults of personality though.

more info: http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/

Gezi Park - an old Armenian cemetary? Turkey is f-ed up. Armenian Genocide

Remember that park they wanted to save in Turkey? Come to find out it's built on top of an old Armenian cemetery.

"..The Pangaltı cemetery was demolished in the 1930s and in 1939 its marble tombstones were sold and used to build the Gezi Park's fountains and stairs..."

Isn't that nice?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangalt%C4%B1_Armenian_Cemetery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taksim_Gezi_Park

Maybe it should go back to being a cemetery?

Families Can Be Together Forever... Through Evolution!

Families can be together forever... through evolution and natural selection.  Marriage. Sex. Children. This is the path to the only real flesh & blood immortality we will ever experience.

Thoughts on related topics:

Masturbation: Ok if it doesn't detract one from reproductive sex. For most people it won't. It doesn't need to be encouraged nor discouraged. And it won't in and of itself lead to homosexuality.

Sex before marriage: As an addendum to the comments I made in the video, on top of education and disease prevention, if we could have a system of verifiable virginity before a person enters into a long term committed relationship (eg: marriage) that would still be nice & preferable. Of course it's not 100% possible as per what people actually do. But I am just saying that 16, 17, and 18 year olds should find some other way of "playing around" that rules out a.) disease transmission, and b.) hey, may even a loss of virginity.

Abortion: Should be discouraged but legal before viability, and illegal after. As the viability timeline is reduced via science, then the legal line should follow it downward. People who engage in abortion before viability are not murderers per se. Not 100% free from ridicule perhaps, if the procedure is just used so that "you can be you" and for fully selfish reasons. But on the other hand people like Peter Singer who advocate for after birth abortions have been infected by the liberal meme set.

Homosexuality: Justified by the liberal meme set.
.
Living the childfree life: People who're hurt & abused by the liberal meme set. People who cut themselves off from the only immortality we will ever experience. Chumps & fools.

Overpopulation: Not a concern, and certainly even if it were you should still have children!

Religion is a natural phenomenon: A hard concept for the ex-religionist to accept also.

Can you question liberal dogma?

Related posts:

Family Values Atheism: Questioning liberal dogma -- the Gay Flag: Freaks Welcome Here -- questioning gay marriage -- secular reparative therapy (choosing to live straight)
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/08/family-values-atheism-questioning.html
and
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013_08_01_archive.html

Family Values Atheism: Questioning liberal dogma -- the Gay Flag: Freaks Welcome Here -- questioning gay marriage -- secular reparative therapy (choosing to live straight)

Family Values Atheism
Questioning liberal dogma
the Gay Flag: Freaks Welcome Here
questioning gay marriage
secular reparative therapy (choosing to live straight)

Examples of liberal dogma:

1. Everything is equal.

2. Gay marriage is as useful, helpful, healthy, and productive as regular heterosexual marriage.

3. Gay couples are as useful, helpful, healthy, and productive as regular heterosexual couples.

4. Gay sex is as useful, helpful, healthy, and productive as regular heterosexual sex.

5. For the individual, living the gay or homosexual lifestyle is just as useful, helpful, healthy, and productive as living a heterosexual life.

6. For groups of humans, it's important to be "accepting" of a much wider range of expressions of human sexuality.

7. Being gay is just "who you are," and whatever happens to pop into your head is "what's right for you."

8. If you find out you like men sexually, it's ok to cheat on your wife, get AIDS, die, and leave your family with no father (as happened with an uncle of mine).

9. Being around gay lifestyle living parents doesn't impact children to be gay. If you're the daughter of a gay man who otherwise cheated on your mother, got AIDS, and died as a result - it's no problem for you to learn from your father that being gay is ok and therefore to live as a lesbian.

10. It's ok for convicted pedophiles to be readily accepted back into the gay community after they get released from prison.

The gay flag essentially means: "Freaks Welcome Here." I first saw such a flag being flown over the entrance to a Unitarian Univeralist church, a church which for several years was headed up by a transgendered woman/man/it (woman to man). "We won't judge you." Well, after several years of being exposed to gay culture via a nephew of mine I can safely say this: Yes, we need to "judge" the gay lifestyle. Yes we need to judge whether gay marriage is equivalent to regular true straight marriage. Yes we need to judge whether inherently non-reproductive sex is as useful to humanity as regular sex is.

There are some gay people who spend there lives in service & helping others - being part of the social fabric in a good way. But, there's also hordes of homosexuals who spend their lives selfishly chasing their own & other people's tails - to no useful end. A permanent stunted petty vain childhood state.

In cultures which are less accepting of the state of being homosexual, there are less homosexuals. Socialization plays a much larger role in what happens than the gay rights advocates will admit. And "just being born that way" doesn't mean your brain is 100% blocked from life as a more normal, healthy, productive, and happy person - living a life which isn't stunted.

So, if you've found that you like people of the same sex sexually, I would submit that you can choose to open yourself up to happy sexual marital long term family type relations with a person of the opposite sex. And what will be the benefit of such an action? Immortality.

I agree with the Black Atheists of Atlanta where they state that the only true flesh & blood immortality we will ever experience is through having children.

An animal which doesn't wish to reproduce for whatever reason is damaged. As an advocate for naturalism, I'm for examining ALL human cultures to see what may lie at the heart of human nature. And many cultures discourage homosexuality. Is that a bad thing? No! I support them. And in as much as I can join hands with the rebels who are in the Black Atheists of Atlanta, I'll do so - as a guy with lighter skin. But I'll join them in spirit and with the brave concept that as an atheist we can rebel against, and take a step back from, liberal dogma too!

Not everything that comes from religion is necessarily bad. What they advocate for CAN be part of human nature. And reproduction is a damn important part of human nature. If you find the liberal dogmas you're being taught draw you away from this key fact, you're being abused. So work to free yourself...

Raising children in a household which is accepting of the homosexual agenda can lead to children who won't reproduce. That IS a problem. Liberal dogmatists will try and tell you otherwise. But such people are essentially part of a new death cult. That's my view.

So, do I think homosexuality should be illegal & punished? Maybe not. But I do question the value of legalizing gay marriage, and of assuming that a gay couple can raise a child just as well as a regular straight family. A gay could will introduce the gay agenda meme set to the child as being acceptable, and that may well open up the child to being sucked into a dead-end, petty, stunted life path.

For the gay people who do live service oriented lives, I feel empathy and sympathy for them, and I feel sad for them as well. I also feel sad for the heterosexual liberal who also chooses to not have kids because they've been lied to and sucked into the liberal death cult that teaches, among other things, that overpopulation is a concern, and that overpopulation in third world countries means you shouldn't have any kids.

What a crazy and destructive idea: "Your right to be a zero." Ok, you've got that right, but I don't have to respect it. And being gay is another way to be a zero. Yes we have certain artists who we remember, but even they could have hooked up with a woman and had kids - if they would have opened their minds to the possibility. The possibility and option for immortality. Some of them did.

So, from a secular perspective, there's no shame in living a "reparative" life, that is a life where you choose to live "straight" even if you're inclined to varying degrees to be "gay."

It's heresy in liberal & gay groups to state that choosing a straight life is a.) possible, and b.) preferable. They'll go on angry witch hunts against such ideas. Remember the Spanish Inquisition? Today we have the Gay Inquisition. Watch how angry your average "gay" person gets online when they encounter such ideas.

Hey, it's not about god my friend. It's about tying into true & honest human nature, and that nature may well discourage people from engaging in inherently non-reproductive sex in the long term. That nature may well also discourage other destructive behaviors, such as sex which leads to deadly diseases and so on.

Human morals have some rather key foundational reasons behind them. Discouragement of homosexuality and encouragement of being a normal, healthy, productive, and dare I say, reproductive person, is a good thing. There, I said it. And if you're an atheist group who is ready to excommunicate people for having this view, or if you fly the gay flag to show how "accepting" you are, well, you're really no different than the religions you claim to be against.You've got your dogmas, and you're ready to back them up. But, I would argue, you're not really true humanists nor a true naturalists.

Religious & atheist groups are essentially meme set advocacy groups. Atheists groups DO advocate for a set of memes. So do religions. All these meme sets operate in human brains, and on the framework known as the human body. It's all natural, like it or not atheist & religionist. So that's what a liberal today has to come to terms with: examining which parts of religion, the parts that actually ascribe stigma to certain human behaviors - which stigma-advocating parts are actually valuable & worth advocating for? Oh my god, that's a super hard one for an ex-religionist to do.

The ex-religionist may well spend years of "letting it all hang out," and exploring Alice in Wonderland style all the hippie shit out there. But in the end maybe you'll then come around and find that some of the stuff they taught you as a kid, in your religion, may actually be, at least in part, correct. How can this be so? Because even in your religion it was humans talking to humans. A natural occurrence.

Liberals claim to be able to be more introspective - willing to do self examinations. But are you introspective enough to examine whether certain activities actually DO deserve to be shamed for (eg: discouraged)?

video made August 12, 2013 7:41am

further links:

Sexual reorientation therapy not unethical: Column
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/07/30/sexual-reorientation-therapy-not-unethical-column/2601159/

"Former American Psychological Association President Says APA Has been “Hijacked” by Gay Rights Activists"
http://narth.com/2013/08/psychologist-for-kaiser-permanente-speaks-out-on-patient-choice/

National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) position statements - a secular group advocating for reparative therapy
http://www.narth.com/menus/positionstatements.html

Many atheist groups have been similarly hijacked. The Unitarian Universalists were already hijacked and have been for some time. The creep of the gay freak flag has now moved on to "main line" atheist groups. But, the black atheists are thankfully pushing back.

Is Homosexuality Destructive For The Black Family?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kka3ECinb6M

In the video they're critical of "cracker culture." If by cracker culture they mean ultra-left liberal culture that assumes that everything is equal - I agree.

Related previous post with more links & videos:

Homosexuality occurs in nature? So what. Can I be a "black atheist" too?
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/08/homosexuality-occurrs-in-nature-so-what.html

response to: "Porn site claims attack by LDS Church servers" and questioning sex with "boys" in gay culture
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/08/response-to-site-claims-attack-by-lds.html

Yelena Isinbayeva - You Go Girl! -- Questioning Hippie Dogma.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/08/yelena-isinbayeva-you-go-girl.html

Homosexuality occurs in nature? So what. Can I be a "black atheist" too?

Homosexuality occurs in nature? So what. Can I be a "black atheist" too?

From the Black Atheists of Atlanta: "The homosexual community is co-opting the whole atheist movement." And they present the view that there's a difference between "black" and "white" science.

I can very much see their point on the first item. Gay flags are popping up as the front face for several atheist groups.

Also I can agree with them that when hard natural science attempts to address issues which are also in the "social sciences," scientist's own presuppositions & biases can and do affect both the options they're willing to explore, and the outcomes of their research.

Their videos:

Greek Culture - Black Atheist Of Atlanta - 05-23-11:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFXwgPLW378

Gay Zeus & Ganymede - Black Atheist Of Atlanta - 08-08-11

Part 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfpQaUwIqbQ

Part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFnAlsrj9zA

Part 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5nqwrFck58

My response:

URL for above video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px8vqBjmVFg

Ok, so when I left the Mormon Church, I rejected as much as I could of everything they said. That was the first starting point. But, as per Daniel Dennett, religion is a natural phenomenon. Not everything that comes from a religion is there because of the religion itself. Some of the ideas in a religion are natural, and those ideas are there for good naturalistic reason. Take away the religion, and the apparently built-in morals tend to remain - given time.

Religions can also warp a person's built in morality, but, and here's the key point, so can other ideologies.

Here's a picture of when I protested in front of the Mormon Temple Square in 1999:

...(oh my goodness, what a fat bastard I was in those days. It took a lot of work to loose 100 pounds and those thick glasses. Also I now consider Unitarian Universalism to be advocates for belief in and apology for bullshit. So that's been my evolution and Enlightenment process.)

Notice the book I'm holding up the book Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity by Bruce Bagemihl.

So, when I was a Mormon they taught us that masturbation would lead to homosexuality and that it must be confessed to a Mormon bishop. So they taught me & others to fear thoughts of sex, and of what happens when you come of age. Being a normal "straight person who sometimes masturbates" was who I was. And the whole gay movement had a similarly themed agenda. "I'm gay and that's who I am, so you have to respect me."

But, now, after being out of Mormonism for several years, and after learning more about science & history & hearing from all sides including those who question liberal dogma, I've come to conclude that not everything is equal.

Homosexuality is natural! - they say. So what. So is pedophilia. Oh, heresy, heresy, I've spoken heresy to an ultra-leftie liberal. But, hey, I've discovered the value of taking a step back, even from the presuppositions of the left!

Here's quotes of some one and two star reviews from Amazon.com of Bagemihl's book which I now largely agree with. See the original pages for author names:

Half-baked theory, July 28, 2004

The book's extensive documentation of homosexuality in animals may be valuable, but the book's style doesn't leave me with much confidence that its interpretations of the research are sufficiently unbiased to be relied upon.

The book's discussions of why it is hard to provide an evolutionary explanation of homosexuality are mostly reasonable, but the alternative to evolution that the book proposes isn't sufficiently well thought out to qualify as a testable scientific hypothesis. Evolutionary theory has a good enough track record at explaining things that appear at first glance to be counterproductive that people shouldn't reject it without finding an alternative with a good deal of explanatory power. But exuberance is an idea which explains very little. And anyone who has made impartial observations of typical natural ecosystems should see that the extravagance and waste that the book worships are sufficiently uncommon as to be hard to reconcile with the book's characterization.

So Much Written, So Little Conveyed..., December 27, 2004

Bagemihl belongs to the genre of writers who write a great deal but convey very little. His huge book is divided into two parts; the second part describes case studies of homosexual behaviors among several animal species, and the first part provides what could-with great difficulty-be called an analysis of these reports.

Bagemihl groups sexual behavior in terms of five broad categories: courtship, affection, interactions involving mounting and genital contact, pair-bonding, and parenting activities. Such broad categorization risks confounding social interactions with sexual behavior, possibly leading one to mistakenly assume that a preference for specific social partners is a sexual preference for these partners.

Bagemihl alleges same-sex sexual partner preference in at least some individuals in over 50 bird and mammalian species, based on five types of interactions: intersexual competition for same-sex sexual partners, sexual interactions between the object of intersexual competition and a same-sex competitor, repeated pair-bonding with same-sex individuals or repeated selection of same-sex sexual partners, reuniting with same-sex partners following prolonged separations with opposite-sex individuals, and engaging in sexual activity with same-sex individuals in the presence of opposite-sex individuals. Whereas these criteria are consistent with a same-sex sexual partner preference, none of them definitively prove a same-sex sexual partner preference, and an examination of the examples presented by Bagemihl reveals that the majority of the cases of same-sex courtship, mounting, and genital contact can be explained without assuming a same-sex sexual partner preference [see P. L. Vasey, Ann Rev Sex Res 13, 141 (2002)]. Besides, the large number of case studies cited by Bagemihl notwithstanding, his book cannot be used to claim that homosexual behavior is widespread in the animal kingdom because Bagemihl's case studies are drawn from a less than miniscule non-random fraction of the millions of animal species out there.

Bagemihl, failing to find themes behind homosexual behaviors among animals, offers a concept of biological exuberance, whereby homosexual behavior is pursued for pleasure and is a goal by itself that need not serve any purpose other than pleasure. Whereas this may be true, it is difficult to believe that this could be the result of normal developmental processes. Even among humans where much heterosexual behavior is non-conceptive, non-conceptive heterosexual behaviors typically occur as a prelude to or in conjunction with conceptive sexual behaviors. Additionally, the pleasure that accompanies orgasm not only prompts heterosexuals to repeatedly indulge in conceptive intercourse but also facilitates pair-bonding, which would come in handy if an offspring results from the union. Bagemihl's thesis on homosexuality, within a paradigm that he calls non-Darwinian biology, is meaningless for species that are capable of sexual reproduction only.

On the other hand, whereas Bagemihl fails to provide evidence for a same-sex sexual partner preference among the animal studies he cites, it has been proven that homosexual behaviors and a same-sex sexual partner preference are natural (i.e., occur irrespective of human intervention) in some individuals in some breeds of some animal species. However, nobody, let alone Bagemihl, has shown that homosexual behaviors are normal in some animals, i.e., result from development in accordance with design. Whereas the question of the normality of homosexual behaviors among some individuals of various animal species remains unanswered, a considerable amount of information shows that human homosexuality results from abnormal development, specifically prenatal developmental disturbances. See a newly published book in this regard: "The Nature of Homosexuality: Vindication for Homosexual Activists and the Religious Right."

Biological Exuberance or Scientific Burlesque?, June 15, 1999

This review is from: Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity (Hardcover)
I must admit that I find some satisfaction in being a thorn in the side of the homosexual fantasy, but I do apologize to all the honest readers of Bagemihl's work for exposing this "manual of gay opinion" for what it is. Although the second half of the book might serve as an excellent reference for students of ethology (and as a sidebar to one reviewer, there are many, many texts about animal sexual behavior on the shelves of the libraries I frequent; I suspect many from before the reviewer was born), the first half of this text is nothing more than opinion, or what would be termed "observational science." Most unfortunate is the fact the Bagemihl's opinion is actually a second-hand opinion, dependent on the first-person opinions of original observers. I do see that such an extensive volume could be a labor of love, since the homosexual fantasy does not separate sex from love or vice versa.

As to whether or not homosexual behavior occurs elsewhere in nature, is there a true biologist, especially wildlife biologist, that believes otherwise? Every American farmboy can tell stories of observed homosexual behavior. Although it may seem a small step for Bagemihl to jump from adaptive homosexual behavior to homosexual orientation and lifestyle, this is truly a "giant leap for mankind." If one accepts Darwinian evolutionary theory, then at the species level all behavior serves one purpose: survival. Survival of the species depends on reproduction--asexual or sexual, and sexual reproduction exhibits a myriad of sexual behaviors all designed to enhance survival, specifically survival of the fittest.

Most of the behaviors Bagemihl references have been described as enhancing reproductive success, e.g. female bonobo copulation prepares females for future mating and increase fertilization success (and may even stimulate male bonobos, thus enhancing copulatory success). I will admit that there is little hard core, or "conclusive" science to support these interpretations, but the point is that all Bagemihl does in this voluminous text is offer a different interpretation based on his opinion (or a minority opinion if you will). Other interpretations are based on far more knowledge, experience, and collective reasoning.

Proposing consideration of modifications to traditional evolutionary theory based on his interpretation of other workers observations is a real travesty. If we were to modify our assumtions, hypotheses, and conclusions regarding evolution every time someone had an alternative perspection, evolutionary theory would be about as valuable as the theory of genetic predispostion to sexual orientation. We cannot construct science to fit any particular "perspective", such as the homosexual perspective, or it is no longer science, but politics, which is where the argument for homosexual equality should remain. At least in the political realm it is a valid argument. In the scientific realm, it has no ground on which to stand.

Because of the very unscientific nature of Bagemihl's interpretation, I strongly suspect this work will go the way of the early 90's so-called genetic research on the origins of homosexuality--quickly and quietly discredited. It is unfortunate that the discrediting of such works in the scientific community does not receive anywhere near the media attention and fanfare that the original release of such garbage receives.

To sum up, let me say that Bagemihl's work proves absolutely nothing and is more a product of a fertile imagination that of scientific rigor. Bagemihl does present a convincing argument, but he DOES NOT present any conclusive proof of anything. He is much more the marketer than the scientist. Homosexual behavior may (I emphasize "behavior" and "may") have adaptive significance as far as survival of the species. Most ethologists accept that humans do have bisexual behavior tendencies. However, sexual orientation or sexual lifestyle are human choices and deserve psychological interpretation, not biological. Rather than psychoanalyzing wildlife biologists and ethologists, Bagemihl should consider the psychology of the homosexual lifestyle, which in humans includes an emotional element not present in other species, because it is this choice, not homosexual behavior, that flies in the face of evolutionary theory, reproductive strategies, and ultimately, species survival.

Don't put any stock in this book, September 1, 2008

This review is from: Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity (Stonewall Inn Editions) (Paperback)
Interesting how "scientists" can prove anything they want. State a hypothesis, then go about collecting information, categorizing it to suit your purpose, then use it as "proof" of your claim. The reason this book is dismissed by virtually every true biological scientist isn't because of "homophobic academia," (like the book's advertising claims)-it's because true scientific academia can see right through his preposterous claims. Come on, use real science and we'll all get on board with you.

Damn right. "There's gay animals?" So what. There's also ducks who rape. Lions who kill. And humans who are "naturally born" pedophiles, sociopaths, psychopaths, and so on. The "machinery" of biology & evolution may result in some outliers, but just because outliers exist naturally that doesn't mean they should always be fully respected in all cases.

I rather think homosexuality comes from two sources: a.) an artifact (natural byproduct) of the sexual "machinery" built into humanity and of the ways sex gets "set up" in growing infants in the womb, and b.) social acceptance & ultra-left liberal education. Not all a choice, but not all born in. Exposure to hormones in the womb can have an influence. But socialization has a huge influence, much larger than the politically correct left says.

There is something to be said for examining how homosexuality is expressed, or not, in other cultures, so as to question ALL dogmas on the issue, including those on the left. And of course to not go the way of Uganda and have the death penalty for such things. But I have observed my gay nephew & his friends at many gay parties and some gay bars. I have learned that not everything is equal.

Being "gay" for many is this: a near permanent petty & vain childhood state. No opportunity to have their own children, really. Selfishness. Sex which is non-reproductive, and thus they're left in this state for the rest of their lives - unless I suppose they adopt. Sometimes unless biology & nature forces responsibility upon us, we may get sucked into the trap of an otherwise stunted life.

So, THIS is the type of discussion which should be able to take place in atheist groups and in society as a whole, without demonizing or attempting to shout down the person who surfaces the idea!

I can hypothesize what it may feel like to be a gay man who currently dislikes or is fearful of the idea of sex with a woman. But like it or not, from a biological naturalistic perspective, such a person is damaged. An animal that chooses to not reproduce of it's own accord is damaged. Can you choose to work to become less damaged? Yes you can. Not by kissing the bum of some god. Not by joining some church. But rather by opening up your mind to the idea that sex with a person of the opposite sex may not only be valuable, it may be fun.

Look, a lot of sex is in the brain. Maybe your brain was exposed to too little testosterone. Maybe some quirk, accident, or artifact of nature allowed you to consider the possibility of sex with someone of your same sex. But, so what. Consider the costs of just assuming that everything is equal: a.) a largely selfish & permanently-childish life, b.) no real biological flesh & blood children of your own, c.) having to associate yourself with ultra-left demonizing dogmatists who have their own core list of dogmas and heresies, d.) being a perpetual outsider, and e.) having to waste a lot of your life in a wrong-headed "crusade for justice" - just so that you can try and force others to justify what was, in the first instance, an unfortunate choice on your part.

Maybe you cannot "choose" if you happen to like people of the same sex, but I argue that in a lot of cases you CAN choose to open your mind up to enjoyable sex (& therefore reproduction & true marriage) with someone of the opposite sex.

If you're a man who at present is reluctant to have sex with American women, maybe the thing you really oppose is the omnipresent ultra-feminist easy-divorce disposable-relationship culture present in America. If so, there's hope: go overseas if you must, or search harder for a down to Earth woman here. But don't let the hateful ultra-feminists get you down. There are down to Earth real women out there who will value family and children over other considerations.

So, no, you aren't going to hell. No you don't need to be kicked out of your family. But yes, relationships which include the option of real reproduction are superior! That's my view, as a naturalist, "humanist," atheist, and Enlightenment advocate. But, I know these words are heresy to some atheist groups, and that they'd happily go on witch hunts against such views. In that way they ARE rather like controlling religions. Atheism Plus is one such new religion of the ultra-left. And there's others. But those of us who took a step back from one religion don't wish to be sucked into another de facto one.

A gay flag flying on the front page of your "secular advocacy" group means you're not for really for reason, fully honest science, or truly open debates about all issues. Rather, it means your group has been hijacked by people who have naive & foolish assumptions, and by people who will demonize & call out "heresy!" to people who disagree with their assumptions.

I am a human who took a step back from a cult, took a while to explore, and to find that what remains inside us, our desire to reproduce, is something good & worth valuing. It's core to who we are and who we should be. Survival. Life. And true & fully honest science will back this up.

Additional post with more thoughts:

Family Values Atheism: Questioning liberal dogma
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/08/family-values-atheism-questioning.html
response to: "Porn site claims attack by LDS Church servers" and questioning sex with "boys" in gay culture
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/08/response-to-porn-site-claims-attack-by.html