A related exchange from Facebook, quote begins:
I suggest that the way Mormonism deals with sexuality, results in the >exact opposite< of what they're hoping to accomplish.
Recently I encountered Jordan B. Peterson (JBP). I appreciate his approach, honestly, and general pragmatic social conservatism.
Below is a copy of an open letter I shared with him.
I am, now, fully on board with the pro-family pro-life pro-1.2-billion-year-evolved-marriage pro-reproduction pro-children project, but only after observing much of what the abusively permissive ultra left has to offer.
'Choose to be a non-outlier if you can'
I know there's a lot of non-Mormon Christians who're part of recovery from leftist crap. On the Mormon / Christian front there's a relevant old film called The Godmakers which mentions a boy named Kip who killed himself as a result of the Mormon approach.
Relevant clip from the film The God Makers:
------ quote of letter shared with JBP
You've had some questions regarding Mormonism of late. Here's more info.
In response to your general work & for where you touch upon human sexual nature topics:
FYI Mormonism has: a.) frequent required interrogations re masturbation for adolescents & adults, b.) claims from their past prophets that masturbation can lead to homosexuality, c.) a 1982 letter from their leadership stating that oral sex is prohibited. These types of cultural religious requirements tend to generate reactionary ultra-leftists in response, a fact which otherwise defeats the top-level general good intentions of religions like Mormonism.
The founders of Mormonism had underage wives & wives who were still legally married to other men. I'm an ex-Mormon and it's taken me a very long time to recover, first from ultra-right Mormonism, and next from reactionary ultra-leftism.
Now I'm center-right socially & economically. Also I transitioned from being a morbidly obese virgin living in my parent's basement, to a somewhat less heavy regular-house-dwelling father of three with a happy family.
I appreciate your general advocacy for social conservatism, but this is an FYI note that some ultra-right religions do actively generate reactionary ultra-leftists. Interrogating youngsters regarding masturbation teaches them to hate their own evolved sexual natures.
I've listened to your stated stances on these topics and I generally agree with you. For sure our energies in these regards should be directed toward an inherently-reproductive partner. But when adolescents and adults are 'pushed too far,' results can happen which are the exact and precise opposite of what should generally be hoped & aimed for.
The ultra-left is no panacea utopian 'answer' to the ultra-right. Instead I suggest the answers lie with pragmatic honesty regarding human nature & what prompts humans to live happy lives.
...as on a parody website, but the quoted letter is quite real.
3. My own exit journal, on what is now a legacy website which reflects the time when I was still a reactionary ultra-leftist:
5. Wives of the founders of Mormonism:
6. Hundreds of stories of others who've left Mormonism:
7. Anti-masturbation pamphlet given to many adolescents in Mormonism:
8. Another set of instructions given to young boys on the topic of masturbation:
E.g.: "...yell STOP to those thoughts as loudly as you can in your mind."
In-person required interrogations of impressionable youth conducted by Mormon Bishops, interrogations starting as early as age 10.
Telling adolescents that masturbation can make one gay. For myself this was my first introduction to homosexuality - the Mormon Church telling me that if I masturbated I could become gay.
Telling adolescents to yell "STOP" in their minds when they have sexual thoughts.
Intrusive child & adult abuse.
For sure relations with real flesh & blood people of the opposite sex is preferable, but the above illustrations are frankly outright child abuse, and like I say ultra-leftist reactionaries are absolutely generated in response to the above highly hypocritical scheme, hypocritical in light of the documented actions of the founders of Mormonism.
In Salt Lake City there's very active & well attended 'Gay Pride' events, the headquarters of Mormonism. Two sides of the same coin. FYI.
[I received a response from an LDS person at BYU (Brigham Young Universitiy) who scoffed at my account. My response to them:]
When 10 year olds are interrogated on the issue referenced, there's costs.
Yes I know that non-Mormon Christian churches want people to recover from being gay. That's great. Doug Mainwaring's path, is super & I support it.
But, as I note, the non-Mormon Christians have some rather strong concerns regarding the Mormon approach - as noted in the God Maker's film which documents the suicide of Kip Eliason.
I support the general top level social conservative goals of churches like Mormonism. But I'm suggesting they're shooting themselves in the foot by taking an approach which does drive people into the hands of the reactionary denialist left.
What's 'selected for' with humans is inherent reproduction. What makes humans the most happy, is reproduction. Life. Having children. Nihilism is a dead end.
Yes the Mormon Church is tempering their approach. The book widely handed out to church youth, Miracle of Forgiveness, which taught that masturbation would make you gay, is no longer in LDS Church distribution centers. Thank goodness. And many people, including many Mormons reportedly, are glad it's no longer there. But I suspect the interrogations of 10-14 year olds is still taking place. These kids first exposure to homosexuality, is via these interviews & teachings.
Cruising along as a normal kid, and then you encounter this crap? There are costs. The death of Kip Eliason. And yes, I would suggest, a hugely popular 'Pride' culture going on in Salt Lake. Reactions to going too far.
So I agree there's darn high value to the promotion of inherent reproduction. For god if you wish. For Jesus, that's fine. But also to honor 1.2 billion years of our own evolution as sexual animals - 1.2 billion years being the amount of time sex has existed on this planet.
[The BYU man told me that 'anecdotal accounts' mean nothing, but also that the anecdotal accounts of 'millions' of Mormons should be highly respected:]
First hand observations & cogent reflections. Gay uncle, dead of AIDS due to the glory hole culture of San Fran, leaving his straight family with no father. He grew up in Manti, Utah. From ultra-right to ultra-left, then dead.
Gay nephew, sucked into gay culture after having really an overly harsh Mormon father and a passive Mormon mother.
Myself, a reactionary ultra-leftist social justice warrior for several years until I woke up & decided to stop being a nihilist.
First hand lived experiences as a Mormon. Seeing other's experiences.
I'm 100% on board with 5-word-top-level summaries of what Mormons advocate for socially, but I only joined that ship after many years of an Alice in Wonderstand style journey through the dystopian denialist left.
Not to offend anyone, but I see religion as a fully natural phenomenon. Evolved traits couched within religious contexts. The Christian tradition is rather more valuable than others, because it allowed for a Reformation & Enlightenment.
If the Mormon Church is still interrogating 11 year olds about masturbation, such acts have costs I suggest. What are the costs other than the occasional suicide? 'Pride' I suggest. Stonewall reactionaries who see it as their key mission to defeat, the otherwise mostly-good & valuable family values that come out of 50 E. N. Temple (or 47 E. S. Temple).
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not taking things out of the air. First hand observations & reflections. If you don't agree that's ok...
--------------- [The BYU man scoffed and dismissed more. My further response:]
Can you confirm or deny the interrogations referenced are still taking place? Widespread, or not so much?
Not to quell the Lord's Path to Truth or anything. Life does kind of suck, for the canary who has to actually enter the coal mine.
Does the squeaky wheel get the grease or the hammer within the gilded cage? I've had many hammers swung at me over the years, from the right and the left (mostly from the left these days, but I'll take all comers).
The elephant in the room.
The de facto cultural link, between 47 E. S. Temple and 255 E. 400 S.
Regarding anecdotal accounts:
The experiences of millions? Wouldn't that be just a higher number of easily-dismissible anecdotal accounts?
I don't claim anecdotal accounts should be automatically dismissed.
I'm just saying that on one hand you discount my experiences, the lived experiences of others, the suicide of the young man Kip referenced, while at the same time claiming that the anecdotal experiences of others should be rather highly valued.
'Pride' can just grow & grow & grow & grow in Salt Lake, and the guys in the Church Admin building can go on their course pretty much ambivalent to what I'm talking about I suppose. But frankly, I think there >is< a creep of SJWism (social justice warriorism) within Church HQ.
Kimball's horrible book as referenced, gone from the Church Distribution centers. Ding Dong The Witch is Dead - the song comes to mind.
On the creeping-SJW front: At the Utah Museum of Fine Arts, where LDS Church owned property is on display, they now have signs which state that "UMFA acknowledges that gender is not binary."
Art department managers now get to negate 1.2 billion years of history & our own evolved nature?
I have notified the Mormon Church about the signage and the risks such signs pose to women (the signs also say that men can use the women's restrooms if they want). Women of course, real women, have zero choice in this matter.
What's the response of the Mormon Church to this situation, after being notified? Crickets.
I know they teach evolution and biology at BYU, as I've been there first hand (yet another one of those pesky anecdotal accounts).
I'm aware that this forum is intended to serve as a support structure apparently for people who'd like to recover from denialist leftism and who'd like to live lives of inherent reproduction.
As a man with children, I don't want to see my children sucked into the denialist cult of abusively-permissive-leftism. The leftist cult which wants to put a gold star on the foreheads of those who're the very best, at not having children.
The people at the helm of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, have apparently chosen to shelve Kimball's horrible book. That Is Progress.
More Christians. And even More Mormons. That's ok. But on the other hand, child abuse is child abuse. And the types of interrogations mentioned, IMO turn some of the victims into ultra-leftist reactionaries.
Why would I bother to even have this discussion? What's >my< agenda on this front? I want people to be happy, and I want the truth to be out there. The truth is the ultra-left is not a panacea answer to the ultra-right.
If you visit Pride, and Stonewall, and the Unitarian Universalist Churches, and Atheist of Utah parties (A of U is now run by Stonewall SJWs - and they booted me when I told them I liked Duck Dynasty) - if you were to visit these places you'd find cultural refugees who're basically 'in recovery' from the Kimball-Packer approach to things.
