Recovery from Atheists of Utah

Thoughts on recovery from Atheists of Utah, and similar "secular," "humanist," and "naturalist" groups.

A new religion is born, and as with all religion there are de facto elders, priests, doctrines, dogmas, belief maintenance, heresy trials, and excommunications. With the new religion of atheism things are a bit more subtle, but not by much.

Recently in the very exclusive ultra-leftist-atheists-only closed facebook group for A of U I had the audacity to state that I thought Duck Dynasty was provocative, useful, and mostly ok. That was heresy for the group leader.

Here's an expanded version of a response I posted in their closed exclusive de facto ultra-leftie-atheist group:

You're already well on your way to becoming an anti-normal-family religion.

Here's one recent example of the leftist hatred for the normal productive family:

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/stfu

The common stance of your membership falls along similar lines to the STFU-Parents-woman who'd prefer that normal families just shut up about the joys of having children.

In response to my expression of appreciation for Duck Dynasty, your group has given religious responses thus far, straight from the latest human religion.

Belief maintenance. Heresy trials. 

I don't wish to belong to the religion of atheism plus or similar dogmatic faiths.

The founder of your church hooked up with a pro-life atheist and had a kid with her. But she was never welcome at SLVA (Salt Lake Valley Atheists) because of her views. SLVA was decidedly pro-ultra-left.

The fruit of the founder's outreach work has resulted in an ultra-Stonewall focus for your group. That's just the way it is. But it's a bit ironic that the founder of A of U ended up having a kid with a woman forcibly excluded from SLVA because of her social conservative views.

Hmmm. As the world (or stomach) turns. I would have expected better, but it's all rather par for the course in the long history of human religion.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled mirrored echo chamber of unquestioned newly dominant paradigms.

Is the judgement of the church court in now? Sounds like it may be.

Yes I like Duck Dynasty. 

Heresy for A of U.

If you want to have a discussion that's one thing. But if you're just a priest of a church, who pulls every tool out for discounting an argument other than possibly reasonable ones, then I'm not particularly obliged to respond - any more than I am to the leader of any other religion.

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Atheists of Utah was recently named the "best Religious Group" and a runner up for the Best Social Group, as awarded by Q Salt Lake. Apt & appropriate awards. But being at the pinnacle of appreciation for the ultra-left is not all it's cracked up to be. An ultra-leftist cult. That's what Atheists of Utah has become in my view - and so I don't wish to be a member.

Were a group to be founded to help people recover from this new destructive cult of the left, here's draft short & long descriptions for such a hopeful recovery group:

Short description:

At Recovery from Atheists of Utah we help you recover from recovery from religion, particularly the religion known as Atheists of Utah.

Long description:

Did you leave one cult just to find you'd jumped right into another? Atheists claim their beliefs are falsifiable - unless you question the social-agenda aspects of their views. THEN the de facto heresy & excommunication trials begin.

Here at Recovery from Atheists of Utah we recover from the ultra-leftist side of atheism. The extreme-cultist left. Yes the right has their problems, but the left can be just as dogmatic and abusive.

An open exchange of ideas is welcome here. We don't resort to unwarranted name-calling as a means of shutting people up or belief maintenance!

Humans have in and out group morality.

Our in group morality is expanding, and that's a good thing.

But human nature DOES naturally include shaming for certain activities which are otherwise destructive. A damn hard thing for an ex-conservative religionist to realize is that SOME of that shaming actually is a damn good thing for the future of humanity.

Speaking the truth. Liberal cultists don't like it any more than conservative cultists do.

We didn't leave one religion just to join another.

Atheists of Utah, in the view of the author of this description, has become a leftist cult. Just as abusive as cults on the right.

But it's worse in my view: It's a part of the LDC - the Liberal Death Cult, a cult which does not value life & survival - again in the view of the author.

Does this description go too far? Maybe. My beliefs may be falsifiable. I'm willing to listen to evidence. They however, apparently, are not.

Recover from the dogmatism of the left. Avoid politically correct destructive whirlpools of consensus, mirrored echo chambers, and unquestioned newly-dominant paradigms.

Does the right have a point, at least on some issues? It's heresy amongst liberals to say: YES!

But again, we didn't leave one fucking cult just to join another.

Recover, from Atheists of Utah, and similar destructive leftist cults. How? Through honesty, and avoiding affiliation with all de-facto ultra-leftist new-cults. Cults & religions, on the left & the right. We need to find a new way to be human than these petty shallow infantile first-attempts: Through science, honesty, honest history, and being willing to listen to ALL sides.

Does the other side have a point? For example, the guys on Duck Dynasty? What if they do? What if the right is right on at least some points? Heresy, heresy, heresy to admit this. But the LDC is stuck in their own narcissistic hole.

These are all the views of the author - after a lot of observation & seeing what happens on all sides - PLUS after taking a step back from America and seeing what happens in other countries. Come to find out social-conservatvism, aspects of it, DOES actually help humanity survive, thrive, and be happy. Whodathunkit?

The TBMs (True Believing Mormons) don't like my blog. AND the TBULAs (True Believing Ultra Liberal Atheists) don't like it either. Maybe that means I'm making progress!

It's also worth noting that we may need recovery from the Exmoron Foundation. That's another story.

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Related blog posts:

The Atheist Movement needs move laxative - Making room for social & political conservatives!
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-atheist-movement-needs-move.html

Advice for Social Conservatives & Moderates, from a Family Values Atheist
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/05/advice-for-social-conservatives.html

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/atheism
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/homosexuality

Do you all see a difference between being an atheist and being antireligion? | Atheism is a religion

Q. Do you all see a difference between being an atheist and being anti religion?

A. Atheist / Humanist / Secular / Unitarian Univeralist groups all have the trappings of a religion. They are naturally & of course "anti" to other religions they disagree with, just as all religions are "anti" to other religions.

Not everything is equal. Some religions, including the religion of atheism, do make valid claims & contentions about the problems with other religions.

The UUs will admit their group is a religion, "but with no dogma." However that claim of theirs is basically a lie.

Most atheist & secular groups will & do have (unless great effort is made to avoid it) de facto or outwardly expressed dogmas, doctrines, tenants, heresy trials, excommunications, priests, elders, and prophets.

The trappings of religion appear to be part of human nature, and thus are VERY difficult to exclude from ANY social group formed by humans. Meme set (belief) maintenance. Heresy trials. Excommunication. And so on. These are a few of religion's favorite things.

The god thing is not so much an issue, really - when we consider how religious liberals use the term. The muff mouthed Templeton Foundation smoke generator Krista Tippett has shown us the way: for the liberal god can mean anything you want. She & her cohorts strongly want to continue to use the "g" term even if their definition essentially means nothing.

But in any case, like I say liberal religion (which includes most atheist groups) includes dogma, doctrines, tenants, heresy trials, excommunications, priests, elders, and prophets - and that's the main problem, and why they ARE religions in my view.

A "break" from the religious tradition would entail the following key principles:

1. Not being doctrinally tied to any one political AND social agenda.

2. Being willing to accept what honest science, honest experience, honest history, fully uncensored & open discussion, and fully open membership, may result in. A free & open exchange of ideas. A crucible. Science has shown as the way, as have people like Pinker & Hitchens.

3. Being willing to challenge our own suppositions, really challenge them & not just give lip service to such challenges. Are your beliefs falsifiable? From what I've seen many atheists do not maintain their beliefs are, not really. G term this G term that. It's not so much about the G term. It's about doctrines, dogmas, and ideologies, and agendas we ourselves are unwilling to question.

4. Not having de facto heresy trials for people who disagree with the group-leader's positions or beliefs.

5. Not having de facto excommunication trials for people who disagree with the group-leader's positions or beliefs.

6. God forbid, being willing to accept that some aspects of social conservatism may actually have some value to human happiness & well being. The fact that religion is a natural phenomenon (ref Daniel Dennett) cuts both ways.

7. However we have to be careful of the "naturalistic fallacy." Just because something is natural doesn't mean that activity is helpful to humanity. And yet, fully-naturally highly-valuable actions & activities can be fully couched within fully-natural religion. This is a hard pill for the recoverer from an abusive cult like Mormonism to accept. Mormonism by it's own actions is hurting the otherwise good causes they advocate for. Revisionist history. Harsh treatment of heretics. Child abuse. Their extreme abusive actions actually HURT the otherwise good things they may advocate for. Their way-over-the-top responses to things like masturbation, well, it pushes people WAY over to the other side - but the other side isn't any better. But it takes time for an exmo to learn this - via first hand experience, and taking a step back from ALL the craziness on ALL sides.

Additional related thoughts:

Humans are not a tabula rasa. Pinker showed this via his most excellent book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_chalks_it_up_to_the_blank_slate

Libertarians are "lightly" tolerated in atheist groups. Social conservatives are not. Such a state of affairs indicates a problematic naivete which is highly common among "liberals," speaking as a liberal myself perhaps for the most part.

Liberals don't know crap about what happens in conservative religions. They pretty much know nothing about Islam for example. AND they also know nothing about what happens within their own camp on the ultra-left side.

Conservatives have their problems. But the answer or solution to a given problem is not always the exact opposite view. Being willing to take a step back from our little realm & sphere of experience helps to see where the real truth may lie.

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com

report on visit to American Atheists convention in Salt Lake City, April 2014

Report of visit to the Hilton on Friday 4-18-2014: Having not paid the requisite $300, we didn't have badges on. We walked around the cocktail hour socializers on the 2nd floor for about 5 minutes. Didn't see anyone we knew, except one person who didn't recognize us.

Didn't see any youtube celebrities.

Didn't see the bible beating protestors outside - they must have arrived later.

We also walked quickly through Comic Con down the street. No one checked for a pass, perhaps because I had my son in arm. We breezed through quickly and only spent about 1 minute inside a hall just seeing the overall layout. Overall it looked like a fun affair.

We thought the atheists would have even more fun it they visited the Salt Palace & Comic Con.

I imagine that attending national atheist conventions is an interesting experience. You get to see a few youtube celebs who you'd never otherwise see. You'll never see them again, and they'll never see you again. You'll also probably never see again 99% of the other people.

Not many kids present, if any, but we were only there for 5 minutes though that's also true.

In any case secular groups need to become more welcoming to having kids present at their meetings, if they expect more religious people to join up. I for one resent the Unitarian Universalist model of sending your kids away to some basement room while the adults stay behind, and that model should not be mirrored by secular / humanist / atheist groups, especially not in Utah.

http://www.atheists.org/convention2014/

"American Atheists fights to protect the absolute separation of religion from government and raise the profile of atheism in the public discourse."

"...unless you post a link to your own blog on our FB page - then you've gone too far. You're engaging in 'self promotion' by posting a link to your own blog, and we here at American Atheists cannot tolerate having speech present from others - speech which detracts from US!" ...reasonable paraphrasing & interpretation of their response.

Whatever. Just goes to know Groucho Marx said it best: I don't wish to belong to any group that would have me as a member.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Groucho_Marx

p.s. The policy at
http://www.atheists.org/convention2014/code-of-conduct
where they state "...This convention welcomes families with children and expects all participants to treat these families with courtesy and respect..."

Damn. That's a better statement than what the Exmormon Foundation stated on their website for their convention this year:

"...Due to the nature of the conference presentations and the serving of alcohol during the evenings, we have established a strict policy that no children are allowed except for nursing infants. In addition, since the presentations are recorded for our website, it's important that we control the ambient noise during the recordings. If you have any questions about this policy, please contact the Conference Chairman..."

http://web.archive.org/web/20130730052521/http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/conference2013.html

Hmmm. At least American Atheists states that their convention is supposed to be family friendly. That's a lot better stance than what the Exmormon Foundation does!

Why would a foundation meant to support former Mormons actively exclude those with children from attending? Strange, especially since in Mormon meetings they don't send their children away to some back room - during the main meeting, unlike some religions.

But, American Atheists is still too controlling on their own FB page. So no one's perfect.

Ukraine; sex should result in children; atheist religion; capitol building should be open

On Ukraine & Russia: Russia is lying.

About Jian Ghomeshi & Terry Gross: the childless-gay interviews of public radio.

The way you love does matter.

If you love the wrong way you might just get AIDS, die, and leave your straight family with no father.

You can have abuses on both sides.

Atheists of Utah: one big problem with this group is that the focal point for their activities is attending the yearly gay pride festival in Salt Lake.

Regarding human sexuality: Unless kids come along naturally, you can end up with a life that goes nowhere.

Inherently non-reproductive sexuality does, in the long term, go nowhere.

To my fellow atheists & naturalists: will you try to eject me from your de facto church?

I can see why Tom in Portland went back to evangelical Christianity. Poor dating prospects in the secular groups, which are usually highly populated by gay fat women with strange hair.

Having kids is a good thing.

We need to reform atheist groups: extracting such groups from the dogmatism of the left.

Currently if you don't adhere to the ultra-liberal agenda you will undergo a heresy & excommunication trial in many secular / atheist / naturalist groups.

Regarding the GCHQ spying on the intimate activities of people who use Yahoo Messenger to have webcam chats: That does go too far. Gathering connection to connection data into a large database is one thing. But keeping content data, and being able to watch en-masse webcam chats by regular people, without court approval for each search of actual content does go too far.

The U.S. Capitol Building should be returned to the people, for open walking around. Right now it is most definitely not a "temple of freedom." Perhaps the Congress can go work elsewhere, and have the building returned to the people. An initial security scan is ok at the door. But after that people should be free to walk around the building. Until then, it is not, nor will it ever be, a "temple of freedom" as is claimed in the current mandatory film they show to all visitors at present.

Commentary on pronunciation issues with English. John Boehner's last name should be pronounced boner, not bayner. English is English. Pakistan is Pakistan, not Paaaakaaastaaaaan. It's France, not Fronce. It's Mexico, not Mehico. And so on. English is English. If Mr. Boner wants people to pronounced his name as Bayner then he should change the spelling of his last name.

On NPR - National Politically Correct Radio

2-27-2014 7:30am 3:23pm

Atheist Family Values: Attention Exmormon Foundation: humans have children. And more on presuppositional apologetics.

Now that I actually have a child I'm finding that some secular advocacy groups either are actively not child friendly, or they are passively so (by inaction or just not thinking things through).

Attention Exmormon Foundation: humans have children. Having a "strict no child policy" is discriminatory.

Attention Atheists of Utah: voting for your leaders at a party which isn't child-friendly, that's also not good.

Perhaps we need a "family oriented" atheist or freethinker group in Utah.

Also more thoughts on Eric Hovind & Sye Ten Bruggencate. They essentially tell us: "We don't do Bible study with people who don't believe in the Bible." And they're also very keen to tell other people to shut up. Reference one (42:19 to 44:00 and 1:22:47), and two (35:49 to the end).

Ok, well, in response we could then well tell you: We won't chat about science & evolution with you, so long as you deny science, reasonable evidence and facts, and evolution.

Regarding the gotcha interviews Eric & Sye have conducted with apparently joint-toking college students: Yes, Eric & Sye, you may be able to get them to say "yeah, I don't know anything. You're so right." But once again you're not really being honest with your approach. What else is new.

More info:
Eric Hovind & Sye Ten Bruggencate. Kiss Jesus's Ass or Go to Hell. Presuppositionalism.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/07/eric-hovind-sye-ten-bruggencate-kiss.html

options in Utah for meeting with secular advocates

Here's info on local atheist groups in & near Salt Lake:

Salt Lake Valley Atheists. Meets the 1st Sunday at Sizzler on 4th South at 11:30AM. Kirk Robinson is the speaker this month. Eat if you wish, but it's not required. Come to the back room. For more info: http://nowscape.com/a

Many attendees are exmos. The group is purposefully politically liberal for what it's worth.

Another group, Atheists of Utah, has coffee chats every Thursday. More info on that:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/atheistsofutah/
or
http://www.meetup.com/aofuslc/#calendar

Atheists of Utah is a 501C3 type group and so is "officially" politically neutral, but attendees can have whatever views they wish & debate & discuss freely. The coffee chats tend to be a churning type of experience, and they can be fun if you decide to simply talk to your neighbor. Location Mestizo's Coffeehouse, 7-9:30PM. More info on the website.

The above groups, and this group, are members of UCOR, the Utah Coalition of Reason. http://reasonutah.org/

The yearly Exmormon Foundation conferences in Salt Lake have never had a "Christian" agenda per se - mostly a secular one of learning to live life after being in the circle of the cult. http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/

There are two Unitarian Universalist congratulations in the Salt Lake valley and some former mos attend. My own personal satisfaction level with each congregation has varied & wavered over time. From a cultural perspective the meetings & layout are more similar to Catholic & Anglican services rather than Mormon. The kids are, for example, sent away to rooms instead of being allowed to stay with their parents. Also they tend to have a paid preacher - who does admittedly tend to be very socially liberal, but still it's usually the same person speaking every week. The UU's in general have some taboos about being truly honest about he problems with religion though, and so sadly they have their heads in the sand as much as other religions to some extent. But nevertheless they are a socializing option you could consider if you wish. My further concerns about UUism: http://tinyurl.com/beqls4b

There is one or two decidedly "Christian" exmo groups locally.
Example: http://www.meetup.com/Salt-Lake-City-Ex-Mormon-Meetup

My view on such things is that people are unfortunately jumping from one cult to another. That's my view, and I won't belong to any group that would seek to censor my trying to speak my mind. I try not to be a cultural relativist, so I could say "if that what floats your boat, so be it" but I won't because doing so makes me feel bad.

Here again is a more full list of groups that ARE stronger advocates for secularism and the fruits of the Enlightenment: http://reasonutah.org/groups/

Try them all - as on that site. And don't forget that in some there is a weekly or monthly churning. So if irritating people show up one week, maybe next time you'll find more interesting people - or you could be the interesting person yourself.