Recoverying from cults on the right and the left

Ok regarding meme sets called cults, I've been a member of more than one:

1st: The Mormon meme set. Still a cult, with a slow trajectory toward being less cult like. Founded by two polygamists who had a.) underage wives (this is called: pedophilia & child rape), and b.) wives who were still married to other men (this is called: adultery).

The Mo Church dumped polygamy, which was good, but splinter groups who also worship Joseph Smith continue the practice. I've toured first hand polygamous cities in & near Utah. And we've been bowling next to a gaggle of polygamous women & a few of their kids. I also see them at grocery stores near me on occasion. Splinter group Mormons.

In more recent years the Mo Church decided to micro-manage the sex lives of their members. In 1982 Prophet of God Spencer Kimball issued a directive stating that oral sex was not approved of god. Think about the content and procedure of such a letter going out to Mormon members. Consider very carfully the impact on the lives of regular people of such a directive.

Next Spencer Kimball told the youth of the church that masturbation could easily turn them into homosexuals. He also stated that >mandatory< interviews regarding masturbation were >required< with Mormon bishops. Such interviews were also common at the Mormon Missionary Training Center.

Consider very carefully the impact on people's lives of such misinformation & abuse.

Now, Kimball's lying abusive book Miracle of Forgiveness (oxymoron title) was recently removed from the Mo church distribution centers, after being present there in multiple languages. This happened with the past 5 years or so. But before about 5 years ago, this crap book was again in multiple languages, and given to young people & adults as required reading: https://archive.org/stream/MiracleOfForgiveness/MoF_djvu.txt

So, the dumping of Miracle of Forgiveness from the Mo Church distribution centers (the stores members go to buy religious study materials directly from the church), well that's a move in the non-cult direction.

But, and this is a huge point, the interrogations of young people & adults regarding sexual matters continues. Thus, still a cult.

If you question the leaders you are blocked from access to the temples of the church, and you might be put in trial and booted from the church. Thus, still a cult.

Some members will still threaten you personally if you publicly question church teachings and church leadership. Thus, still a cult.

There is still incredibly strong social pressure to >never< question what the top leaders say. Thus, still a cult.

2nd: The cult of cultural leftism, which I much later leaned results from cultural neomarxist postmodernism. The cultural left denies science & reason & evidence & human nature every day & all the time.

Was Margaret Sanger a eugenicist? Yes she was.

Do children absolutely require, for their own well being, a mother AND a father? Yes, for concrete and proven evolutionary reasons.

Does the birth control pill alter, in bad and dangerous ways, the mental health and mate preferences of human females? Yes.

Should a mother, ideally and if at all possible, stay home with her children for as long as possible, for the best well being of the children? Yes.

Are women paid less than men for equal work? No.

Is there systemic racism in America? No, and there's hasn't been any such for many years now.

Are humans a gender binary species? Yes.

Is capitalism & full free speech the best ways for humans to thrive best? Yes.

Did Karl Marx fundamentally misunderstand human nature? Yes. Do all socialist / communist / Marxist systems eventually fail? Yes. Are they human spirit destroying Ponzi schemes? Yes.

Is monogamy the best way for humans to mate & have kids, a system which is best both for female & male & children well being? Yes.

Do religions couch evolved morality & evolved traits? Yes.

What are the leftist answers to all the above? Pretty much exactly the opposite of what the facts & our own evolved natures show. Thus on point after point, the cultural left, is a fraking cult.

Masturbation doesn't make you a homosexual as was claimed by Spencer Kimball, although telling kids it easily can or will does unfortunately generate many ultra-leftist angry reactionaries who end up in the other-cult known as Stonewall & "Pride." But, when you're of dating age and especially when above the age of 21, directing your sexual energies toward inherent reproduction is a strategy for success.

I spent many years as an ultra-leftist reactionary. A ping pong game from ultra-right to ultra-left. From one cult to another.

A few of my nephews & nieces (and an uncle) weren't unscathed from the abuses of the ultra-left. And frankly those who were hobbled (& killed) were victims of BOTH the ultra-right AND the ultra-left. A reactionary pingpong game.

Yes people deserve to know the truth. Are you being held back by entrenched dogma & doctrines? A dogma is a premise which cannot be questioned by definition.

Yes we can question whether cultural neomarxist postmodernism is a cult and comprises a set of lies or not. Yes we can question human nature. We can question whether scientific propositions are true or not.

Joseph Smith was a charlatan, but there's a great deal of charlatanry going on on the cultural left also, charlatanry with far wider abusive scope than the influence of the itty bitty religion of Mormonism.

Breeders will inherit the Earth. Problems with "recovery" from religion.

Is there evidence for a god?

There's evidence that people believe in gods.

There's also evidence that they believe in them for fully natural reasons.

Ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WhQ8bSvcHQ

My own experiential & observational evidence shows that when people leave their religions they can assume that the opposite position is healthy or correct. They can then fall right into a virtual pit.

It takes time to "settle" after leaving a religion - if people will settle. Sometimes they don't or can't.

I cannot force myself to believe in clear & apparent lies.

I realize that humans are set up to believe in lies as a means of survival, avoiding destructive behaviors, reproduction, happiness, and so on.

On the other hand, there's some religions which really do grind people down & abuse them.

The ultra-left is just as much a religion as the ultra-right.

Unquestionable dogma & doctrines. Heresy trials. Excommunication.

They also deny basic human nature. Ignoring what desert, African, and Chinese tribes do, while focusing in & only valuing what the "hippie" tribes do & advocate for. Desert-tribe-o-phobia. Non-hippie-tribe-o-phobia.

All of what I've observed first hand.

I try not to surrender to peer pressure. Right now I'm pushing pretty damn hard against peer pressure on the left, just to even consider that the middle or right may have some valid points on some issues. Fully natural fully reasonable points which help protect people. Protection from the pitfalls of human nature. Protection from outliers. Yes religion & culture help manage all this, for very natural & reasonable & rational reasons.

Additional people who helped me on my journey:

Steven Pinker. Daniel Dennett. Christopher Hitchens. Michael Shermer. Sam Harris. And now even Peter Hitchens.

Maybe all of these people are more socially liberal than I am. But all of them have been willing to speak the non-PC truth that questions confirmation bias & presuppositions on the left as well as the right. Anyway just fyi.

First hand observational experience came from having what was an Alice in Wonderland journey or theme park ride through a lot of what ultra-liberalism has to "offer," plus one to China where they're much more socially conservative (and yet no Bible), which all led me to conclude what I conclude today.

I can talk about evidence for this or that. But my main point & position is that religion is simply a way for humans to have a cushion or protective cocoon around fully natural morality. Protection. Survival. Reproduction. And when people leave that cocoon they can go right off a cliff.

Religion is culture. And most all cultures include some form of religion - some more lighter than others. But even your average atheist has de facto doctrine & dogma - political & social views they consider non-questionable.

Religion is such a natural phenomenon that many atheist groups are religions. Unquestionable political & social doctrines & dogma. Exclusion. Attacks against those who are skeptical of their doctrines & dogma. Heresy trials. Excommunication. This all happens readily within most atheist groups.

But the abusive part of atheist religion is how they deny human nature. The part of human nature that says "yes, we should be concerned about outlier behavior." The part of human nature that says "yes, we should value & promote life and normal inherently-reproductive families."

Those who fool themselves into believing that the childfree life / outlier-marriage life is in any way equal to non-outlier inherently reproductive marriage fall right in line with, what is frankly, slow motion suicide. And everyone should be against suicide in any form.

related book:
Decline & Fall: Europe’s Slow Motion Suicide
http://www.amazon.com/Decline-Fall-Europes-Motion-Suicide/dp/1594032068

The low birth rate amongst people who've rejected a god shows how humanity is really only barely ready to not have gods. And in Europe all the childfree liberals are being overrun by humans in the Islam camp. The breeders will inherit the Earth, like it or not. And one place to step away from all this is China. Rural China, where they have very light religion, light ancestor worship, and yet more conservative values. No Bible. No Book of Mormon. How do they do it? They aren't caught up in "recovery" from bad bad religion, like much of the west is. They don't assume that the extreme opposite side is the "answer." And so on.

Has your life been happier after leaving Mormonism?

Questions: "...How has life been since you left the LDS church? Do you feel like you're happier?"

Yes, I'm happier, for many reasons.

I'm also upset, for other reasons.

Happy because:

1. I have a wife & kid who aren't Mormon.
2. I'm out.
3. I can touch my John Thomas.
4. I can engage in oral sex.
5. I can drink coffee, tea, and cabernet sauvignon wine.
6. I can watch Destricted, or Caligula without shame or guilt.
7. My kid won't be a Mormon.
8. I'm more intellectually honest.
9. I'm more emotionally honest.
10. I'm no longer in the soul-destroying culture of Mormonism.

Upset because:

A. The "recovery" groups like Atheists of Utah, Unitarian Universalism, CFI, Humanist groups, Minnesota Atheists, Atheism Plus, and even your local Stonewall center (for those so sucked in), are all de facto ultra-leftist religions, with their own unquestionable dogmas & doctrines. Denying human nature & human history, while claiming to be skeptical. Assuming that everything IS permitted when there is no god, even though it's not.

B. The defeatist Krausian mayfly theory of human existence is out there in the secular community, teaching atheists to be just as nihilistic as your average evangelical Christian.

C. Finding that the left can be just as abusive as the right.

D. Finding that the left is so incredibly myopic about the entire scope of human experience. Only the hippie tribes are valued. But desert tribes, or even Chinese tribes, oh, we must ignore them. Hippie colored glasses slant their view.

E. On the other hand, I'm also upset that the Mormon Church continues to destroy the lives of children & adults, via wide publication in many languages of incredibly abusive books like Miracle of Forgiveness. I'm also upset that sexually intrusive interviews still happen with children & adults.

More: http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/

The Atheist Movement needs more laxative - Making room for social & political conservatives!

link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_f6bQjwNQo

 
The Atheist Movement needs more laxative, so as to make room for a wider scope of inclusion.

Social & political moderates & conservatives!

The business of "recovering" from religion is not so easy or simple.

One can foolishly jump from one extreme, to the other.

Until, one day, a person wakes up and realizes what has happened:

Freaks like this are readily accepted into the leftist community.

And, this uncle who grew up in ultra-conservative Manti, Utah - dying of AIDS leaving his straight family with no father. A victim BOTH of Mormonism, and of the opposite side he jumped to in response.

Examples of the dark side of "social justice" advocacy in the atheist (bowel) movement:

Atheism Plus Social Justice Update Pt. 1: The Lulz

http://youtu.be/rtOUWCKBKB8

Atheism Plus Social Justice Update Pt. 2: Feeding the Troll

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=711OW6trnAQ

Creepy Clowns: Freethought Bullies and the Threat Narrative Clown Horn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_7SRa_xQNQ

On PZ Myers

http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/the-comments-pz-myers-doesnt-want-you-to-see/

On elevatorgate:

https://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/tag/elevatorgate/

and

http://revolutionaryatheist.tumblr.com/post/49553395619/elevatorgate-everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-

Some preliminary responses:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminism-and-the-disposable-male/

My own thoughts:

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/humanist

and

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/left

and

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/05/recovery-from-atheists-of-utah.html

My angel reading convicted pedophile friend accepting nephew is a victim also, of all sides, both of Mormonism's extreme harshness regarding boys who're perhaps a bit more effeminate & who masturbate, plus his father's harshness on such issues, and the opposite end cesspool.

Related posts:

Recovery from Atheists of Utah
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/05/recovery-from-atheists-of-utah.html

Advice for Social Conservatives & Moderates, from a Family Values Atheist
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/05/advice-for-social-conservatives.html

Recovery from Atheists of Utah

Thoughts on recovery from Atheists of Utah, and similar "secular," "humanist," and "naturalist" groups.

A new religion is born, and as with all religion there are de facto elders, priests, doctrines, dogmas, belief maintenance, heresy trials, and excommunications. With the new religion of atheism things are a bit more subtle, but not by much.

Recently in the very exclusive ultra-leftist-atheists-only closed facebook group for A of U I had the audacity to state that I thought Duck Dynasty was provocative, useful, and mostly ok. That was heresy for the group leader.

Here's an expanded version of a response I posted in their closed exclusive de facto ultra-leftie-atheist group:

You're already well on your way to becoming an anti-normal-family religion.

Here's one recent example of the leftist hatred for the normal productive family:

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/stfu

The common stance of your membership falls along similar lines to the STFU-Parents-woman who'd prefer that normal families just shut up about the joys of having children.

In response to my expression of appreciation for Duck Dynasty, your group has given religious responses thus far, straight from the latest human religion.

Belief maintenance. Heresy trials. 

I don't wish to belong to the religion of atheism plus or similar dogmatic faiths.

The founder of your church hooked up with a pro-life atheist and had a kid with her. But she was never welcome at SLVA (Salt Lake Valley Atheists) because of her views. SLVA was decidedly pro-ultra-left.

The fruit of the founder's outreach work has resulted in an ultra-Stonewall focus for your group. That's just the way it is. But it's a bit ironic that the founder of A of U ended up having a kid with a woman forcibly excluded from SLVA because of her social conservative views.

Hmmm. As the world (or stomach) turns. I would have expected better, but it's all rather par for the course in the long history of human religion.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled mirrored echo chamber of unquestioned newly dominant paradigms.

Is the judgement of the church court in now? Sounds like it may be.

Yes I like Duck Dynasty. 

Heresy for A of U.

If you want to have a discussion that's one thing. But if you're just a priest of a church, who pulls every tool out for discounting an argument other than possibly reasonable ones, then I'm not particularly obliged to respond - any more than I am to the leader of any other religion.

---

Atheists of Utah was recently named the "best Religious Group" and a runner up for the Best Social Group, as awarded by Q Salt Lake. Apt & appropriate awards. But being at the pinnacle of appreciation for the ultra-left is not all it's cracked up to be. An ultra-leftist cult. That's what Atheists of Utah has become in my view - and so I don't wish to be a member.

Were a group to be founded to help people recover from this new destructive cult of the left, here's draft short & long descriptions for such a hopeful recovery group:

Short description:

At Recovery from Atheists of Utah we help you recover from recovery from religion, particularly the religion known as Atheists of Utah.

Long description:

Did you leave one cult just to find you'd jumped right into another? Atheists claim their beliefs are falsifiable - unless you question the social-agenda aspects of their views. THEN the de facto heresy & excommunication trials begin.

Here at Recovery from Atheists of Utah we recover from the ultra-leftist side of atheism. The extreme-cultist left. Yes the right has their problems, but the left can be just as dogmatic and abusive.

An open exchange of ideas is welcome here. We don't resort to unwarranted name-calling as a means of shutting people up or belief maintenance!

Humans have in and out group morality.

Our in group morality is expanding, and that's a good thing.

But human nature DOES naturally include shaming for certain activities which are otherwise destructive. A damn hard thing for an ex-conservative religionist to realize is that SOME of that shaming actually is a damn good thing for the future of humanity.

Speaking the truth. Liberal cultists don't like it any more than conservative cultists do.

We didn't leave one religion just to join another.

Atheists of Utah, in the view of the author of this description, has become a leftist cult. Just as abusive as cults on the right.

But it's worse in my view: It's a part of the LDC - the Liberal Death Cult, a cult which does not value life & survival - again in the view of the author.

Does this description go too far? Maybe. My beliefs may be falsifiable. I'm willing to listen to evidence. They however, apparently, are not.

Recover from the dogmatism of the left. Avoid politically correct destructive whirlpools of consensus, mirrored echo chambers, and unquestioned newly-dominant paradigms.

Does the right have a point, at least on some issues? It's heresy amongst liberals to say: YES!

But again, we didn't leave one fucking cult just to join another.

Recover, from Atheists of Utah, and similar destructive leftist cults. How? Through honesty, and avoiding affiliation with all de-facto ultra-leftist new-cults. Cults & religions, on the left & the right. We need to find a new way to be human than these petty shallow infantile first-attempts: Through science, honesty, honest history, and being willing to listen to ALL sides.

Does the other side have a point? For example, the guys on Duck Dynasty? What if they do? What if the right is right on at least some points? Heresy, heresy, heresy to admit this. But the LDC is stuck in their own narcissistic hole.

These are all the views of the author - after a lot of observation & seeing what happens on all sides - PLUS after taking a step back from America and seeing what happens in other countries. Come to find out social-conservatvism, aspects of it, DOES actually help humanity survive, thrive, and be happy. Whodathunkit?

The TBMs (True Believing Mormons) don't like my blog. AND the TBULAs (True Believing Ultra Liberal Atheists) don't like it either. Maybe that means I'm making progress!

It's also worth noting that we may need recovery from the Exmoron Foundation. That's another story.

---

Related blog posts:

The Atheist Movement needs move laxative - Making room for social & political conservatives!
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-atheist-movement-needs-move.html

Advice for Social Conservatives & Moderates, from a Family Values Atheist
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/05/advice-for-social-conservatives.html

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/atheism
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/homosexuality

Response to a brainwashed Mormon woman from Oregon

On Facebook I found a post by a current Mormon who lives in Oregon. Below I've drafted her questions & my responses. The text next to the Q for question items is her text. And my responses are next to the A for answers.

---

Howdy.

Your profile doesn't look like a one-off troll type account, and so I'm going to respond in more detail:

Q. Why is it so important for non LDS people to tear down the LDS religion?

A. Normally when people act in this regard it's for reasons they feel are good & valuable.

There is a substantial difference between the Evangelical protestors outside of the Great & Spacious Building & Temple Square during Mo. Conference, and why we wish to "tear down the LDS religion."

I also don't put much stock in people who're unhappy with Mormonism because the Mormon Jesus is different from the Baptist or Protestant or Catholic Jesuses. I could care less about such differences.

However there are many valuable, good, reasonable, valid, cogent, evidence-based, experience-based, fact-based reasons we can give as to why we express concerns, and why we use the tonalities we use as we express our concerns.

Do you REALLY want to know the answer, or are you just claiming there CAN BE NO answer which contradicts the validity of Mormonism? If your approach is the latter, then there's not much use in proceeding further. However if you really want to know the answer, here's where to find out more:

1. My own exit journal: http://corvus.freeshell.org/corvus_corax/two/life_path/life_path.htm#history

2. The exit journals of hundreds of others:

http://www.exmormon.org/stories.htm

3. Specific exit journals by others I find particularly valuable:

Simon Southerton - http://www.exmormon.org/whylft125.htm
audio form his speech during his 2006 appearance at an exmo conference:
http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/audio2006.html

Additional conference audio files: http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/conference-archive.html

Q. I don't see anyone trying to do this with any other religion.

A. Are you sure? Atheists tend to know the most about religion.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/28/nation/la-na-religion-survey-20100928

http://bigthink.com/videos/reading-the-bible-or-the-koran-or-the-torah-will-make-you-an-atheist

Scientology criticism: http://www.xenu.net/

JW recovery: http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/jw-sites.html

Unitarian Univeralist recovery: http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-new-creed-of-unitarian-universalism.html

Catholic: http://bishop-accountability.org/

Islam: http://ex-muslim.org.uk

Q. Belief is belief

A. What a person believes in makes a difference. Not all beliefs have equal value. Some beliefs hurt people & destroy lives.

Q. belief in something is better than belief in nothing.

A. We don't believe in "nothing." We just don't believe in Joseph Smith's alien Kolobite god.

http://corvus.freeshell.org/psittacus/three/tract/kolob_tract.htm

Q. Like all religions it is not for everyone

A. Abusive controlling brain washing iron fisted destructive religions should be for no one, ideally.

Q. should remain a personal choice.

A. Children cannot choose. Most children are sucked into the religion of their parents. They don't have the ability to choose. Even adults can be sucked in though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

Q. If you make the choice to remain a non believer in the LDS religion

A. A non-believer is no longer in the religion.

Q. then you have no right to tear it down.

A. We have EVERY RIGHT (!!!) to speak our mind, and we shall continue to do so. It is a terrible offense and abuse to request that we do otherwise.

Your church did this (among MANY other abuses):

http://web.archive.org/web/20131021180407/http://www.affirmation.org/suicide_info/sin_and_death_in_mormon_country.shtml

"On March 2, 1982, Kip Eliason, age 16, distraught and filled with self-hate over his inability to stop masturbating, committed suicide..."

Good job there, Mrs. Mormon. Good job, Spencer Kimball, Boyd Packer, and parents like you (presumably). You helped Kip stop playing with his "little factory" such that he felt it necessary to kill himself.

More appropriate responses:

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/boyd%20packer

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/Spencer%20Kimball

Yes, they couldn't keep their Jesus off my penis. But, there's many other abuses that happen.

Abuses of power. Telling members they cannot question the leaders, and if they do they'll be kicked out. Being kicked out may also be turned out onto the street from your family. Complete exclusion from your own family. And even for more "nice" Mormons it will still mean exclusion from temple marriage ceremonies & other things.

PART-Member family. PART, part, part, part, member family. Which "part" is the good part and which part is the evil part? Which part is the good wing, and which part is the damaged wing that one would be better off cutting off? Member. Non-member. Apostate. Enemy of the Church. And so on.

These are ALL expressions of OUT GROUP morality. Not nice. Not good. Yes fully natural. But best worth discouraging where possible.

Thank goodness for the Internet for increasing all the scope of all of our in-group morality. The 'net is hurting Mormonism & other expressions of destructive out-group morality - and that's a good thing.

http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/12/genocide-in-bible-ingroup-outgroup.html

http://edge.org/conversation/mc2011-history-violence-pinker

Q. If you are an inactive member due to some wrong you think you suffered then that is also your choice.

A. When a church leader acts as as an instrument of abuse (which they do by default), is that their choice?

When Joseph Smith slept with a 14 year old & with the wives of other men, was it his choice? Or is it only an even-choice when someone decides they don't like the abuse? A choice that can be easily discounted?

Yes, people use their brains to make decisions. To get away from the abusers, the cult, the brain washing, the control, and to be more free. And that's a good thing.

Q. It doesn't make the religion wrong

A. Yes it does. What else would? History, or revisionist-history? Facts, or just faith-promoting-pseudo-facts? The real life experiences of people, or just those interpreted in a way to never criticize the Mormon Church or it's leaders?

Q. It just makes it wrong for you as an individual.

A. No, not everything is equal. Not everything is relative. Not all churches are of equal value. Not all churches help and/or hurt their followers in the same way.

Q. I am an active member and devout in my beliefs

A. Which is exactly why you're saying what you're saying. Meme set defense mechanisms. Amazing, but very sad. Mormon Brain Software. Yes, I had similar software running in my brain, and I'm quite familiar with how it works. The Church is always right, everything else be damned. Joseph the charismatic charlatan has shown you the way.

Q. It was the right choice for me and my children

A. You are actively abusing your children by allowing them to remain within Mormonism.

Q. and we are happy.

A. Happy in the gilded cage?

Happy in the black & white world of Pleasantville, or the color version? Happy in the dream world of all-encompassing all-encircling Mormonism, or in the real world of reality? Is ignorance bliss? It can be for a time. But in the long term being forcibly ignorant keeps a person's brain & soul in a type of prison.

http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/Redpill

Q. No one really knows if religion is true.

A. We know it isn't. 8 year olds at fast & testimony meeting, and their brain washed parents, know it is.

Q. No one really knows if there is an afterlife.

A. There isn't.

Q. My chosen religion has made me a better person

A. You don't sound like a better person so far.

Q. and has given me a standard in which to live my life.

A. Your standard for living should not come from old farts who want to get your money & keep you down. Humans have built-in morality, instilled by evolution by natural selection, and by the "neck-top" apps given by culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_chalks_it_up_to_the_blank_slate

your neck-top: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q_mY54hjM0
and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXvldBqYjGM

Q. I have peace in it.

A. The peace that comes from ignorance. The peace that comes from ignoring the pain of others. The peace the comes from putting your head in the sand. The peace that comes from letting your children be grilled about masturbation, and putting your children's genitals into the hands of fucking old abusive farts. The peace that comes from forcibly excluding others. The peace that comes from being a cult follower.

Q. Just because you have chosen not to believe doesn't mean the religion is wrong,

A. Are your beliefs falsifiable? If not your brain might be in a box. You need to let it out. Science shows us the way: Criticism & skepticism in the first instance. And then later truth & fact finding after cogent theory development, testing, peer review, and so on. But being willing to trash the ideas of your fellows, in good faith, all in an attempt to find out where the actual truth lies. Are you doing that now? No. Yes your religion is wrong.

Q. or that Joseph Smith (my ancestor) was a bad man.

A. OMG. Were I still a Mormon, I would now be in awe of you.

The progeny of JS has spoken, and is here before us. If you were a man you might be a G.A. today. But because you don't have a penis you're pretty much excluded from any real leadership roles. Damn. If you have some male children maybe they've got a chance.

Does a bad man sleep with a 14 year old and with the wives of other men?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Q. It is the fastest growing religion in the world

A. No it ain't.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/?hpt=hp_c1

"...The fastest growing 'religious' group in America is made up of people with no religion at all..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion#Overall_statistics

Damn. Looks like atheism or Islam, depending on which column you choose.

Q. in the Hispanic population

A. Less educated people in Mexico & South America are more easily sucked in.

Q. so there must be something to it.

A. Yes there is. Amway on steroids. A cult. A sink. A whirlpool.

Religion is a natural phenomenon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_the_Spell:_Religion_as_a_Natural_Phenomenon

Q. See it for what it is.......A CHOICE

A. I don't really know why you keep saying choice. Choice this. Choice that.

You don't seem to understand the subtleties or realities of how the human brain works. A brain can be sucked in and held down. When a brain is in Mormonism it engages in meme-set defense & maintenance activities. There's a lot less choice in this process.

While I do believe & maintain we have free will, I can see where Sam Harris is coming from:

Sam Harris's view on free will:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FanhvXO9Pk

Daniel Dennett's response:

http://www.naturalism.org/Dennett_reflections_on_Harris%27s_Free_Will.pdf
or http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/reflections-on-free-will

Harris's response to Dennett's review:
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-marionettes-lament

In any case we have more free will that a petunia or a carrot. Our neural networks are incredibly complex computers which has far more decision-making power than other animals. But we are animals, and built-in traits & proclivities have far more of an influence than many would like to admit.

Humans can be sucked into cults. They are sucked into cults. Children are sucked into the religions of their parents. If a child's parents believe in an abusive religion, then they will probably grow up and become an abuser themselves - unless they come to their senses as they become more psychologically adult, or if they're exposed to enough evidence (personal or otherwise) which finally dislodges them from the abusive-religion meme set.

Q. The ones who feel damaged and destroyed can go their own way and figure out what is best for them.

A. What's best for us is to do exactly what we're doing now.

Trying to help educate people like you about the problems with the cult you're in. Your brain & body have been hijacked, as have the brains & bodies of your children.

Here's a quote from a post I made back in 2012,
at http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/adorations_index.html/viewthread/35772/#561941

Recently I discovered that Miracle of Forgiveness is available at the mobot distribution centers, in several different languages. In each language section they have the BOM, maybe a bible, but always this POS book.
http://www.lds.org/braille/The Miracle of Forgiveness.txt

Very appropriate responses to this book can be found in the form of one star reviews at Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Miracle-of-Forgiveness-ebook/product-reviews/B002JQK1VG/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

Since the Mormon Church apparently considers this book to still be highly relevant, then every despicable thing Spencer Kimball & Boyd Packer have done relative to negative portrayals of human sexuality to the youth & adults in the church is relevant also.

On oral sex, Spencer wants to get into your bedroom:
http://lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter.shtml
http://lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter1.shtml

On masturbation, Spencer & Boyd both want to have a look:
http://www.zionsbest.com/only.html
http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/masturbation.htm

Also Spencer really is concerned about "petting" and "heavy petting." Oh my, that f-ing old fart must really have been hyperventilating when he wrote his Miracle of Forgiveness book. Necking. Petting. Heavy Petting. Tell us more Spencer, about all the things you dream about at night but also hate yourself for thinking of.

But people say he was such a nice man. My father has said this, as did my mother who worked as a nurse in the COB. But the guy was really not so nice after all, after you read all hateful the trash he put out.

Here's a related blog post:
Subverting normal human sexuality: Mormon Church's principal crime
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/12/subverting-normal-human-sexuality.html

Anyway, with my new wife seeing the pretty white shirts and the pretty buildings, and with my more recent research into the issue of Kimball's trash book being widely promoted in different languages by the mobot church, I decided to put on youtube a reprise of a song I created some time ago:

We were all just sperm in god's balls, a parody of the song Seeds:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/12/we-were-all-just-sperm-in-gods-balls.html

And, with Joseph Smith's nutty view of heaven in the form of Kolob, and "Kobol" entering the common consciousness in the form of the much less campy newer Battlestar Galatica version, the following newer song came out of a recent morning shower singing session:

Launch a Mission to Kolob...
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/12/launch-mission-to-kolob-and-blow-place.html

Joseph gets to have a 14 year old wife & wives who are still married to other men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wives

Brigham gets a 15 year old & wives still married to other men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young's_wives

But, Spencer & Boyd really were/are obsessed with that you and your children are up to at home, at night, in the privacy of your bedrooms. What's up with that? And since Spencer's piece of trash book is *very* relevant for the Mormon Church, as per their having it readily available in many different languages at their distribution centers, (and reportedly since it's required reading for new missionaries) it's clear that they are still very interested in transmitting this human spirit destroying set of memes onto everyone they can.

What is up with the Mormon Church & sex? Their horn dog founder created a religion whose god, apparently, has to have an orgasm every 4.6 minutes to create 107 billion people in one million years.

107 billion people may have lived on Earth so far:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097038/Are-really-people-alive-today-lived-Earth.html
...and that number doesn't account for "worlds without end."

Perhaps the Mormon God is rather like a giant space termite:
http://www.termite.com/images/queenking.jpg
...that would be more fitting.

Is your god an alien?
http://corvus.freeshell.org/psittacus/three/tract/kolob_tract.htm

...and yet, now they want to very much control even the mere thought of sex in their members. Why? Because once a person actually allows themselves to be open to the possibility of sex being fun, normal, natural, empowering, and liberating, they can more easily find they have no use for the Mormon God or for the supposedly good feelings you get during Mormon Church meetings or from reading the lies of Joseph in the form of the Mormon scriptures.

The Mormon Church tries to hijack people's basic emotions, and to subvert & control & misinterpret them for their own nefarious ends. Other conservative religions do this also.

In any case I get much better feelings of validation from the love of my wife & new son than I ever got in mostly boring Mormon Church meetings, and from the occasional good feelings they claimed "proved" their church was correct. There's a price to be paid for pretty white shirts and pretty buildings.

If feelings can be used as a form of validation, then that means the much better feelings I've had since leaving mean their lies were incorrect.

----------end of quote

Q. That doesn't mean it isn't good for those of us the religion is working for.

A. It's bad for you even if you think it's good.

Life in Oregon is rather substantially different than life in Provo (unless you live too close to the Portland Temple).

Q. I was a Catholic before I converted to LDS and I wasn't happy but I refuse to bash that religion.

A. Bash away. They need some bashing. Child raping priests? Sounds like a good reason to bash. Have at it!

Q. I have seen no evidence worth my time

A. It was worth your time to write. Is it worth your time to read the responses? If it's not, don't bother complaining in the first place.

Q. I do believe in the church and our prophets, the apostles and the corum of the 70.

A. It's spelled quorum.

Your post is a prime example of why you're not really a happy nor healthy person while being Mormon. Blind ignorance to the life experiences of others. Forcible ignorance to evidence, truth, fact, real history, and so on. You have been abused. You are being abused. And if your children are in the church, they are being abused, for many reasons.

Q. I believe in its teachings and how the church was restored by Joseph Smith.

A. More examples of your abused-status.

Q. All that evidence you talk about is made up and false.

A. More evidence of your being in a cult.

Q. This is a life style for active members, not a hobby or just something we do on Sundays.

A. We know damn well what life is like in the Mormon Church.

Q. We cannot be swayed by false propaganda and 'evidence' written by angry inactives or non-members.

A. More evidence that you're not a nice, happy, or healthy person.

If you want to have a dialogue with people who've left, you can have one, you can have a conversation. But NO we won't shut up at your request. We WON'T stop speaking. We WON'T stop calling out problems with the church of our youth. We WON'T stop trying to free people from the abuse - and that includes trying to free YOU from it.

Sincerely,

Jonathan

April 22, 2014

p.s. Regarding the process of science & how it works:

"Trashing" & "tear down" might imply that everything's up for grabs when it isn't. Yes it's the goal of all reasonable honest scientists to try to "tear down" existing theories. To disprove them. To show where they're wrong. But more often than not one theory builds upon another. Einstein's theories didn't destroy Newton's. It simply built upon the previous theory, showed where Newton's claims remain valid (for most of human experience & speeds & viewpoints), and where they fall apart (eg: close to the speed of light or when next to very massive objects). Same goes for other new theories, usually. But when a bigger part of a theory is overturned, we view that with joy, not concern. Cha-ching - we've now learned MORE about the Universe. Super!

The truth finding method of science is far more powerful because of this. Far more accurate results than other methods.

In science you get ahead by disproving or finding flaws with previous theories - and that is it's power.

Related article by Steven Pinker:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities