Ultra-leftist type, and Darrel Ray's own, "sexuality" are apparently assumed by Ray and his followers as being The
definition of Secular Sexuality: It or they are Not.
You've been very verbose with your efforts to date, so I've opted for a verbose response.
A great crusade has been launched and is ongoing. But here's my take on your whole effort:
I agree that the "addiction" paradigm regarding sexuality is inherently abusive.
A better view would be this: Our brains were set up by evolution via natural selection to be "addicted" to certain activities, and that's a damn good thing, otherwise we probably wouldn't be alive today.
Drugs can hijack that built in system.
People try and make money off of selling sex as a means of hijacking our evolutionary-"designed"-sexual-system.
When people leave conservative religions they can jump to the complete opposite side of things, and can go right off a cliff.
I agree with a fair amount of what you say. But I think you have gone off the deep end yourself, by reportedly being a "polyamory" type person and advocate.
Within the context of the incredibly toxic way rightist religion shames regarding sex, it's very understandable why some people find it necessary to maintain high value with letting it all hang out. But there are some fully natural & reasonable reasons why religions have codes of conduct regarding sex.
A damn hard thing for an ex-religionist to admit.
Yes the ultra-right goes too far (too much shame), but so does the ultra-left in their own way (too little shame, and not recognizing how there's fully natural & reasonable value to ideals like monogamy, fidelity, and working to direct your sexual energy into productive activities eg. dating & inherently reproductive marriage as opposed to not).
People can be and are victims of the ultra-left (which they jump to and glom onto after being ultra-right).
I was raised a Mormon. After leaving Mormonism I became an ultra-leftist. I spent several years wading in the swimming pool of the left. Now I'm married to a socially-moderate-to-conservative atheist from China, a woman with zero connection to the Bible, Quran, or Book of Mormon. Where did her social-conservatism come from? Joseph Smith? Mohamed? The Pope? No. It came from her humanity, and culture is inseparable from biology & evolution.
Daniel Dennett's dangerous idea is that religion is a natural phenomenon. This fact cuts several ways. Yes it shows that religion is not "divine," but it also shows that it's very human.
Fully natural evolved codes of conduct do exist within religion. Dismissing all those codes simply because there's a charismatic charlatan as a leader of a given religion is premature. The codes themselves can have some very good reasons for existing. Yes, some bad, but also some good.
So what to do as a person who's very angry at the abuses of conservative religion regarding sexuality? Completely rebel? Proclaim that full sexual freedom is best? No. You're setting yourself and others up for failure if this is the route you take and/or advocate.
Like it or not shame evolved as a useful tool of protection within the human animal.
Regarding the DSM-IV: Whatever happens to be written inside books of this nature isn't "science." Psychology is not really a true science as such. There's huge leftist cultural confirmation bias going in within groups like the APA. Examples? Google for them yourself, but suffice it to say that the cultural left does not have all the answers.
Yes Mr. Ray I loath and hate Spencer Kimball & Boyd Packer & Joseph Smith & Mohamed. But on the other hand, my own wife is a sort of "control" for what humans do when they're *not* exposed to Abrahamic faith.
Also the left's fear of "patriarchy" is dogmatically misplaced misdirected abusive anger in and of itself.
So I agree with a fair amount of your work, but I strongly disagree with the current lengths to which you take it: an apparent de facto advocacy for a level of human promiscuity which is in and of itself inherently abusive. Not because the Bible tells us so, but because human nature and human sexual history tells us so. Infidelity destroys families, because of how human nature is set up, not because a-hole Spencer Kimball thought it was a good idea.
Thanks be to Thomas Rowlandson, and Mihály Zichy, and films like the Good Old Naughty Days, yes I agree with that. On the other hand there's some damn good reasons to be faithful to one's wife, and to value inherently reproductive marriage & monogamy & families & life, and to be highly skeptical of abusive humans who want to sell sex for money & so on - to yes hijack our evolutionary evolved sexual systems for their own ends. So this is all a balancing act between both sides IMO.
I received a few snotty responses from an operator of the FB in question, and from one other guy. Here's quotes of my responses. The page operator deleted some of my replies & the replies of others. Fortunately I made copies before they could click delete.
============== comment 1:
Additional note sent to the guy;
----
Humans gets to make rules to help quell destructive behaviors.
There's better and more productive activities than porn and harlotry that humans can and do engage in.
You've set yourself up as a sort of prophet, imposing your own brand of overly permissive sexuality as *the* secular sexuality. It ain't.
What you're peddling really is an infantile flavor: the initially and understandably rebellious flavor.
After the 60s comes the 70s hangover. And lives are destroyed via too much permissiveness.
It ain't a religion thing. It's a human nature thing.
Science and skepticism are not present in your endeavors.============== comment 2:
How about a podcast that's more along the lines of honest science and true honest skepticism?
Can we be skeptical about the value of the porn industry, and about all things "sex positive?"
Here's my question:
"Do you think selling sexuality and selling your body as a deceptive lie is helpful to society, or an inherent abuse?"
The assumption that being a secular who's sexual must mean all porn is good, and that monogamy is inherently bad, is a very misguided and very-unscientific non-skeptical assumption.
Science requires a crucible. Your requirement of having questions which "...must be sex positive..." disallows honest scientific & skeptical inquiry into the subject.============== comment 3:
Ad hominem fallacy and completely false claims.
I don't need your luck and neither do regular faithful monogamous humans trying to get on with their lives raising productive happy families.
The key touchstones for the rebellious here are harlots of one type or another.
Yes the machinery of evolution produces non-productive outlier activity, but humans are not bonobos.
Lives and families are destroyed via too much permissiveness.
Poly people are being abusive to themselves and others.
The ultra left is no answer to the ultra right.
We, recoverers from religion don't need the abusive non- solutions offered within the chambers of harlots, pornographers, and poly people who're in denial about human nature and the *value* of avoiding destructive outlier type behaviors.
If you or anyone here were interested in science and skepticism you wouldn't be putting all your eggs in the baskets of greedy abusers who're working to hijack our sexual systems to their own ends.
============== end of comments posted on the FB page in question.
Follow up thoughts:
Ray has reportedly come out as "polyamorous." Here is a graphical symbol he frequently uses in his conference presentation:
The above symbol is a slightly modified version of the symbol for transgenderism.
Also a brief view of the recent podcasts put on by Ray has swingers, porn stars, and various flavors of other "outlier" groups.
SweetWomanDirtyMind blogger – Lisa – talks about transitioning from religious to atheist, from monogamous to kinkster, swinger and sex positive blogger.
Sandra Meade is the host on one of the longest running LGBT shows in the
US. She is also an activist for Transgender issues and rights. We
discuss a broad range of topics.
Dr. Ray talks with 3 polyamorous people about relationships and jealousy.
And from their FB page:
Secular Sexuality Podcast
October 2 at 8:22am ·
Dear friends of the Secular Sexuality Podcast, on Monday I will be taping an interview with the Internationally known porn star Angela White from Australia. She actually ran for Parliament a few years ago as a member of the Sex Party, a fully recognized political party in Australia, I met the president Fiona Patten, when I was in Australia a few years ago. I want to give my listeners an opportunity to ask a question so here is my offer, if you would like to ask her a question put it in the comments below. I will select one or two questions to ask her, from those submitted. Questions need to be related to the theme of the podcast and must be sex positive. http://angelawhite.com/
---------end of quote
Porn stars, swingers, poly people, so-called transgender people, militant homosexual advocates: The quintessence of ultra-leftist sexuality today.
To Ray and his groupies the absolute quintessence and near utopian stance of human sexuality is represented by what inherently non-reproductive outliers do, and what non-monogamous people do.
They conflate the fact that humans share a common ancestor with Bonobos with what human nature is.
They conflate what humans do (cheat), with what humans need to do to have happy families (not cheat)!
They conflate and mix up their own desires to rebel against ultra-right religion, their chosen-ultra-rebellious flavor of sexuality, with what normal healthy thriving happy human sexuality is.
Permissive relativist liberalism destroys families and lives.
Jumping from the ultra-right to the ultra-left can result in the destruction of your family (via cheating, betrayal, and via deadly STDs).
Polyamory advocates are in denial about human nature. The answer to the ultra-right is not dismissing all sexual shame, rather it's putting that shame within context: the biological and evolutionary context.
There are damn good reasons for sexual shame: family stability, child support, happiness, progress, growth. Shaming for destructive abusive dead end outlier behaviors, all that shame has some very reasonable evolutionary roots.
All this is completely lost on Ray in my view.
Polyamory (eg: swinging - sex with multiple partners openly simultaneously) is an inherent abusive, upon those who practice it and the people who're connected to the people who practice it. Children raised in such groupings will end up being abused, by default.
Homosexuality (and gender confusion AKA transgenderism) happen naturally because of how the machinery of evolution by natural sexual selection works, and how sex gets set up in us. Doesn't mean being gay is "preferred" or selected for in any way! It just means that outliers "happen" within the context of the currently-operating machinery of evolution.
Homosexuals and transgender (gender confused /deluded) people have no more right to access to raising children than do animals of a completely different species. Outliers are outliers. But most children are not outliers, and so most children need a mommy and a daddy.
Daniel Dennett's dangerous idea, that religion is a natural phenomenon, cuts several ways as I've noted. Fully natural and highly useful human moral codes exist and are couched within religion. Simply because there are no mystical gods as such doesn't mean natural human moral codes are bogus! This is another key point completely lost on people like Ray and his ultra-leftist followers.
People exposed to the abuses of Mormonism and other conservite religions do have an axe to grind, and for good reason. Yes hard-line rebellion is understandable, but it's not an answer in the end.
Why do humans do what they do? That's a key question. And Darrel Ray does not appear to know any of the proper answers.
On his podcast he states that questions must be "sex positive." That phrase is code for open and ready acceptance of the abusively-permissive flavor of leftist relativist abnormal outlier-embracing sexuality, in other words sexuality which destroys families and lives, and which also is a de facto death cult.
All these people, the poly people, the tranny people, the gay people, the "childfree" people, oh and the pedophile people, the confessed sexual proclivities of all these groups exists because of how evolution by natural selection works. Doesn't mean we shouldn't lock up for life and execute all pedophiles, rather the same way we put down mad dogs. Doesn't mean the "sexuality' of the other groups mentioned must be declared as being equal to normal inherently-reproductive human sexuality.
Sex exists for one reason only: Reproduction. That's it. There is some "spill over" which results, but the spill over effects are N-O-T being selected for by the process of evolution. How can they be? Non-reproductive spill over effects most likely cannot be selected for!
So play while you can. Embrace your inner "you" by doing all the selfish dangerous abusive permissive destructive stuff you can with your sexual organs, but in the end there's really only one useful thing you can ever do with them: make babies. That's it. Don't like that fact? Tough.
Having my cake and eating it too.
How can a ex-Mormon be in favor of more conservative (family focused) forms of sexuality, and still also be an advocate for having adult humans being exposed to more honest expressions of what some would call "porn?"
There is joy in sex and we should realize why that joy is there, and where that joy comes from: from evolution and solely because of reproduction and sexual selection.
Porn 1.0 is based mostly on lies and harlotry.
Porn 2.0 allows for organic expressions via couples and individuals showing their sexuality to other adults. But Porn 2.0 is surrounded by and supported by porn 1.0 abusiveness.
Porn 3.0 could perhaps be a porn 2.0 which is not supported by or surrounded by the abusive money grubbing whorishness and lies of porn 1.0.
What would be some examples of Porn 3.0? Perhaps fine art which accurately depicts sexuality. Perhaps films which depict it, where such films are not being sold within the crass lying money grubbing hijacking porn 1.0 context.
I do think it's important that humans be able to learn about sex, and even be able to revel in it's joys and intricacies and power - but they should and must never forget why sex exists in the first place.
Just because humans shared a common ancestor with Bonobos doesn't mean we can be Bonobos ourselves, not without destroying the lives of our fellow humans and not without destroying our own lives.
Ultra-right religion helps push people to the ultra-left, and by so doing it's acting to abuse people further: because within the ultra-left people learn even more lies about human sexuality and they are foolishly taught on the left that "anything goes," when it does not.
[copy of a complaint filed with the University of Utah]
September 23, 2015
Complaint regarding the University of Utah Hospital and it's marketing department: Censored on Facebook, Permanently.
Request
this complaint be reviewed by the "complaint review" committee of the
Hospital, and by whatever citizen-rights-advocacy person or group may
exist within the University structure - any person or group who may
advocate on behalf of citizens who've been wronged by University
actions.
In violation of the First Amendment, in violation of my
right as a patient and citizen to complain to and about the University,
publicly, I have been blocked from any ability to post comments on the
University of Utah Hospital's Facebook page, at
https://www.facebook.com/pages/University-of-Utah-Hospital/102550626466923?fref=ts
Previously I posted copies of complaints on the Hospital's page regarding the Orthopedic Center unit of the Hospital.
Those posts were deleted by Hospital staff, in violation of the First Amendment.
My
posts were labeled as "spam" by the marketing department of the
Hospital (as per their comments to the University Office of Equal
Opportunity).
My ability to post ANY comments at all on the Hospital's Facebook page has been blocked by Hospital staff.
A permanent black mark.
An
attempt at retaliation in response to my Free Speech activities (my attempts to let the public know about problems with the University and
with the Hospital, in a public forum).
----
Congress shall
make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the
press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
the Government for a redress of grievances.
----
"The
right to petition government for redress of grievances is the right to
make a complaint to, or seek the assistance of, one's government,
without fear of punishment or reprisals."
Dr.
David Petron and his staff have directly acted to attempt to punish me
for making in-person during-visit complaints regarding their refusal to
weigh me on a scale during my visit.
Clinic Manager Leslie Berg
of the School of Dentistry has directly attempted to have me ejected
from the School of Dentistry clinics in response to complaints filed
about the school she works for, complaints filed with the University and
with other relevant parties.
The Marketing department of the
Hospital has directly attempted to have be barred from access to the
Hospital Facebook page. They have labeled my posts as "spam," have
labeled me a "spammer," have deleted my public posts complaining about
the University Hospital and it's clinics, and they have permanently
blocked my ability to post anything at all on the Hospital Facebook
page.
These acts by the University are reprisals.
These acts by the University are retaliation.
The University has engaged in censorship.
The University Hospital has labeling my speech as "spam."
The University Hospital has labeled me, a patient & citizen, a "spammer."
The
University Hospital does attempt to boot, block, and censor
patients who complain about poor treatment. If complaints are made
during an active visit, lower level staff summarily boot patients with
zero due process and with no opportunity to speak with the doctor being
seen that day (Orthopedic Center). If complaints are made after a visit
to other parts of the University and to other relevant professional
& accrediting bodies, University Hospital employees try & boot
patients in response. From Leslie Berg: "We don't know why you would
want to continue coming here?" - from the School of Dentistry Clinic Manager.
Are all these the appropriate actions for a governmental institution and for a University and for a hospital?
Clearly not!
They ARE the acts of an abusive institution bent on self-serving self-protection.
A "whack-a-mole" game IS engaged at the University when patients complain.
Your retaliatory acts are acts of punishment, and are reprisals.
Punishments directed at my family.
There
are some good providers & managers at the University - usually most
often on the "general practice" side of things. But there's also
administrators, doctors, clinic managers, and medical students who root
their daily work solely within the religious culture of Utah, where
belief maintenance, heresy trials, and excommunication are all ready
tools they have zero problem with using, using in their jobs as
government employees.
These people haven't read the Constitution, and neither apparently have the legal staff for the University.
Sincerely,
Jonathan with Yanning, Carl, and Tina
p.s.
Carl & Tina were both born at the University Hospital, if that
means anything to you. My wife Yanning is a patient of the Hospital and
it's clinics, it that means anything to you. Attempts to shut up and
shut down my family will not succeed, regardless of the apparent
sociopathic. theocratic, and dictatorial anti-Constitution inclinations
of Hospital & University administrators. The Utah government is MY
government, not your private club nor your personal enrichment device.
September 21, 2015 update, regarding the University of Utah School of Dentistry:
On
July 20, 2015 my wife & I had back to back visits at the Greenwood
Center location for the University of Utah School of Dentistry.
Problems noticed:
Problem 1: For the 7-20-2015 visits or myself and my wife the hygienist involved was not particularly friendly.
Problem
2: For the 7-20-2015 visit for myself, my cleaning was incredibly
painful. No anesthesia was offered for me. If in the mind(s) of the
relevant staff root planing was being done, at no time was the option of
anesthesia offered.
Problem 3: For the 7-20-2015 visit for
myself, root planing was billed out for, even though only a regular
cleaning was scheduled. At no time prior to or during our visit did
anyone warn or tell us a non-regular cleaning was going to be done, or
was being done while it was happening.
Problem 4: While I did
receive a few conciliatory phone calls from a dental medical director,
Dr. Craig Proctor, the regular manager for the clinic, a public employee
by the name of Leslie Berg, is very angry that I have complained about
her clinic to people within & outside the University (as per a
9-21-2015 conversation I had with her).
On 9-21-2015 I had an
extended conversation with Ms. Leslie Berg, a public employee of the
University, and manager over the School of Dentistry clinics.
I
wanted to speak with Ms. Berg because of insurance and clerical issues
for the 7-20-2015 claims (in-network vs out-of-network issues), and so
as to help ensure the 7-20 visits for myself and my wife would be
covered as "in network" with my insurance.
Ms. Berg's tone and approach was essentially the exact opposite of Dr. Proctor's.
Ms. Berg was angry, angry that I had complained to anyone about problems with the visits.
Ms.
Berg wanted myself and my wife, out the clinic door, permanently, in as
much as she said to me "I don't know why you want to continue to come
to our clinic if you are going to complain about us to the university
and to other parties." She made this point several times during our
9-21-2015 chat, and was quite upset that I had complained about the
visit to other University entities and to entities outside the
University.
From Ms. Leslie Berg of the University of Utah we
have a direct attempt at retaliation, retaliation in response to my
complaining about what happened during the 7-20 visits for myself and my
wife.
Ms. Berg said that I had "demanded" to speak with her on
9-21. I told her that I had requested to speak with her, because
clerical type network insurance problems which seemed more in her sphere
of influence as opposed to that of Dr. Proctor, and I explained this to
her staff. But Ms. Berg choose to characterize my request as a
"demand."
Ms. Berg said that she "did not like my approach." This
was her first volley in what became an argument with Ms. Berg. In our
9-21 chat she was combative and retaliatory, and her actions directly
served to undercut the otherwise good work of Dr. Proctor. Again Dr.
Proctor was conciliatory and cordial and kind. Ms. Berg was angry and
irritated, and she sought to deflect-at-all-costs any and all complaints
about bad-and-poor actions of her staff.
Ms. Berg's preference
was to call myself and my wife, as patients of the University, liars,
rather than to take ownership of any miscommunication or lack of
communication or inappropriate actions on the part of her staff.
Ms. Berg also did not address the issue of anesthesia during the supposed "root planing:" None Was Offered to me.
At the University of Utah, if you complain as a patient, a game of whack-a-mole is engaged.
Again.
And again.
And again.
Dr.
Proctor tried to not do this, but Ms. Leslie Berg picked up the virtual
mallet today (9-21) as from the referenced game, and began virtually
whacking away at my family.
Examples of how the game has played out with the dental clinic (paraphrasing Ms. Berg's direct responses):
Me and my family: "The hygienist was rude to us."
The
whack received from Ms. Berg in response: No comment, and "we don't
like the fact that you complained to other parts of the University and
to external entities."
Me and my family: "The hygienist never
warned me she would code my visit as 'root planing' even though only a
regular cleaning was scheduled."
The whack received from Ms. Berg
in response: "Our hygienist and the resident doctor involved both claim
they gave you proper notice. So it's your word against theirs, period,
end of story, and I'm probably going to give more weight to what they
claim as opposed to what you and your family are claiming."
My
response to the above whack: My claim is that the hygienist was rude and
that she never warned me about doing any root planing during a
regularly-scheduled cleaning. I was never warned, at all, and no
anesthesia was offered for the supposed 'root planing,' as is common
when such procedures are engaged.
The whack received from Ms.
Berg in response: "I am upset that you complained about our clinic to
other University departments and to external entities. Wouldn't you be
happier going elsewhere?"
My response to the above whack: "Dr.
Proctor's response to our complaint was positive. Ms. Berg's response is
the exact opposite of Dr. Proctor's in tone & substance."
The
reason I felt it necessary to escalate the issue to other parties was
because Ms. Berg was completely unreachable via phone prior to my
escalations. She never returned my phone calls. No return voicemail.
Nothing. And her staff at the clinics never take messages so that she
can call patients back in a timely manner.
But I ask myself now
what would have happened if she would have called me back? Her tone is
so very abusive & negative now, now that I have finally spoken to
her - I bet her tone would have been inappropriate from the beginning,
had spoken with her earlier.
The whack received from Ms. Berg:
You "demanded" to speak with me today even though Dr. Proctor said that
only he should be speaking with you moving forward.
My response:
"I requested to speak with you because of clerical insurance 'in vs out'
of network errors and issues, and it seemed like you would be the best
person to speak to about such issues. I did not 'demand' to speak with
you. I simply explained the situation to your staff today, and that the
problems seemed more relevant to your scope of work.
The whack received from Ms. Berg: "I am going to end this conversation, now." Click.
My
response: Leslie Berg has been the manager of the U of U Dental School
clinics yesterday, today, and she probably will be the manager moving
forward.
With such a manager, one who is fully willing to engage
in direct retaliation against patients who make complaints, first and
foremost because patients have the gall to complain & raise their
voice, is not a person who can be trusted with the medical care of my
family.
Dr. Proctor is a good man.
Leslie Berg is undercutting his good work.
After
Ms. Berg hung up on me today I phoned a professional dental association
and spoke with it's director, to have this man help me as a kind of
sounding-board.
Their director shared with me the following concerns regarding the U dental school, as follows (paraphrasing what he shared):
1. The U School of Dentistry is very top-heavy.
2. The U School of Dentistry has experienced a great deal of turn around regarding their upper leadership.
3.
The U School of Dentistry, and the U hospital generally, doesn't really
care if a patient is unhappy with treatment. Entrenched government
employees don't have any incentive to change or act better.
4.
The U is a government agency, and entrenched employees like Leslie Berg
could apparently care less what patients think or what their experiences
are.
5. Miscommunication is a fact of life in dentistry, and
patients being properly warned about procedures up-front is also a
continuing issue professional dental associations are trying to help
with.
6. Maybe the University will let Ms. Berg go if this is how she's going to act and if this is how she's going to treat patients.
----end of paraphrases & impressions from a director of a professional dental association.
Regarding item 6, one can only hope Ms. Berg will be let go soon from University employment.
But
there is a great tendency within the University to pounce on patients
who complain. To iron-fistedly stand by providers who act badly. To
defend the status quo, even if that means patients who complain are
booted right out the door - booted without any sort of due process.
Not really appropriate actions for a governmental agency, nor for a "caring" hospital.
Step 1: Patient has a bad experience with a given provider.
Step 2: Patient complains.
Step 3: Patient is retaliated against, retaliation which usually includes quick booting out the door in response.
The University cannot and does not tolerate complaints from patients.
Dr.
Proctor is an anomaly within the current abusive culture. A man who did
try to be conciliatory. But his own entrenched staff acts to directly
undercut his good actions & good intentions.
The University
of Utah is not a church, but parts of it still operate like one. Belief
maintenance. Heresy trials. Excommunications. These tools are all
actively used, today, by University staff.
The First Amendment does apply.
"Congress
shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Complaining
about the U dental clinic to other U departments, and to relevant
external organizations, are all attempts to "petition my government for a
redress of grievances."
Ms. Leslie Berg acted directly to
attempt to abridge this guaranteed right of my family. The right to
complain about poor treatment from governmental officials who operate
health clinics.
Retaliation in response to my usage of the First Amendment.
Yes
the University is not a church, and it's also bound by the Constitution
and so on. Employees like Ms. Berg don't know who they are working for,
nor are they familiar with how good dental practice is and should be
done.
My wife is Chinese, and I wonder if that was the
reason the hygienist was upset during our 7-20 visit? Was that the reason
the hygienist coded the visit for root planing even though no warning
was given for the change? Was that the reason she engaged a very painful
procedure with no anesthesia being offered? Was that the reason she is
now completely misrepresenting what I was told during my visit regarding
what exactly was going to be done?
We came to the
University School of Dentistry because translation services are offered.
We suspect we're being treated badly because of the race of my wife,
and because we have a "mixed-race" family.
Why else would we be treated badly?
Just because U employees & managers really hate complaints from patients?
Probably a combination.
Sincerely,
Jonathan
=== September 23, 2015 addendum:
Related posts:
Complaint regarding the University of Utah Hospital and it's marketing department: Censored on Facebook, Permanently. http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/09/complaint-regarding-university-of-utah.html
University of Utah Orthopedic Center and David Petron: rude treatment, denial of service, refusal to weigh (of all things!) http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2015/06/university-of-utah-orthopedic-center.html
My views on the matter of porn have evolved some. From Pompeii onward there's many examples showing that humans have enjoyed watching portrayals of human sexuality. The ideal expression of sexuality is within marriage. Before marriage, masturbation should be used, but prudently so that you still have enough sexual energy for dating.
Yes, regular porn is crass and stupid, and even abusive. And the industry is a sink hole of abuse. Harlotry & whoring, on film.
Yes it's useful to see how sex works.
Yes, it can be fun. But, don't have too much fun. Seek out people in real life.
Balance.
Prudence.
What would be the solution? Well, I would now lean toward keeping kids away from the stuff completely of course. Completely. And adult should should be, well, as f-ing minimal as possible, with a very strong preference being given toward real in person interactions.
Dating and marriage in other words. Marriage. And yes marriage with children, and that's the point of sex: children!
-----------------------
Ultra-right religious bullshit, repackaged via TED(x) morons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZDHeKDieAc Human interest in watching open expressions of human sexuality isn't fucking the new tobacco. And neither is the darker side of porn 1.0, where people crassly sell a very poor and inaccurate portrayal of human sexuality. Porn 2.0 is a step up, where people organically share more honest expressions of intimate activities. Sites such as xtube.com have such expressions, but sadly sites with some porn 2.0 content are fully funded via crass & abusive porn 1.0 content. Porn 3.0 would be where humans can share full & honest expressions of human sexuality without the abusive harlottry of porn 1.0 being around at all. Also Porn 3.0 would mention how sex results in babies! Perish the thought! Can the two concepts be merged? Porn 3.0 would leave the whores in the dust, but still would share honest expressions of human sexuality. Now, back to Jack Fischer: This "nofap" business of ascribing nobility to abstinence from masturbation: That is abuse - the very quintessence of it. My own experience with masturbation in the Mormon Church: Mortal Mormonism: How Mormons are taught to do right, then betrayed and shamed by their upper leaders. By Jonathan , a former: temple worker, full time missionary, Sunday School president, priesthood holder, and member of the Mormon Church. A personal journal & explanation. http://corvus.freeshell.org/corvus_corax/two/life_path/Mortal_Mormonism.htm or http://corvus.freeshell.org/corvus_corax/two/life_path/Mortal-Mormonism-November-26-2005.pdf In Mormonism they teach young children from at least the age of eleven that masturbation is evil. They also readily share a terrible book called Miracle of Forgiveness by past Mormon prophet Spencer Kimball about the evils of masturbation, how masturbation can destroy your life, may turn you into a homosexual, and is a sin which must be confessed to a Mormon Bishop and is a sin which makes it so you cannot visit the Mormon temples. Related previous posts: Jesus wants me for an asshole: the song of LDS missionaries, bishops, and prophets http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/03/jesus-wants-me-for-asshole-song-of-lds.html lds.org : discover the perversity or Mormonism http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/02/ldsorg-discover-perversity-or-mormonism.html Advice for TBMs on porn: Why society accepts pornography but not littering? http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/05/advise-for-tbms-on-porn-why-society.html To the Mormon wife whose husband is 'addicted to porn:' 12 *real* steps that will help! http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/07/to-mormon-wife-whos-husband-is-addicted.html --------------- Now it's true that there's "dangers" with uneducated exposure to crass harlotry. But on the other hand we can go too far with the shaming. So take with a huge grain of salt advise from fuckers like this guy:
Why be wary of advise from people like this guy? Because there's a very easy abusive slope and connection between ultra-right type abusive sexual shaming, and the supposedly secular repackaging of these ideas. The "secular" supposedly "scientific" repackaging of ultra-right religious shaming regarding human sexuality - is by it's very nature inherently problematic.
As for all this, and especially regarding shaming for masturbation: You CAN and you WILL teach children to hate their own bodies! You CAN and you WILL teach children and adults VERY unhealthy ideas regarding masturbation and the value of self-touching and self-exploration. You CAN and you WILL teach adults they should be AFRAID of having too much sexual energy present in their lives, and in their relationships! Teaching people to be afraid and fearful of the SEXUAL SYSTEMS built into them by billions of years evolution by natural selection: THAT IS ABUSIVE! So there is ZERO nobility in abstaining from masturbation.
There is value in having enough sexual energy and motivation to go on a date, or to love your wife more often. That's true! But the easy-ready slope to teaching people to hate their own bodies just because we're inherently sexual, that is something we need to be very careful about doing. So you abstained from masturbation for six months?
Also you are cheating yourself by doing such a moronic thing!
What a moron you are - you "nofap" fool! Secular repackaging of ultra-right religious shame is really just lipstick on an otherwise abusive pig.
Sorry to see that the TED / TEDx effort has been hijacked by all this. Rich snobs can be dumbshits too.Joycelyn Elders on masturbation:
"...Masturbation, practiced consciously or unconsciously, cultivates in us a humble elegance -- an awareness that we are part of a larger natural system, the passions and rhythms of which live on in us. Sexuality is part of creation, part of our common inheritance, and it reminds us that we are neither inherently better nor worse than our sisters and brothers. Far from evil, masturbation just may render heavenly contentment in those who dare..." http://web.archive.org/web/20041019084748/http://www.uno.edu/~asoble/pages/elders.htm And remember that Bill Clinton fired her for stating this type of thing. Clinton Fires Surgeon General Over New Flap http://articles.latimes.com/1994-12-10/news/mn-7305_1_surgeon-general ...while at the same time Clinton was having oral sex in the oval office. A good response from Hitchens: No One Left to Lie To: The Triangulations of William Jefferson Clinton http://www.amazon.com/One-Left-Lie-Triangulations-Jefferson/dp/1455522996 Bill Clinton, Womanizer and Adulterer In Chief, fired a surgeon general who advocates for the value of masturbation. Past Mormon Prophet Spencer Kimball tells married couples they should not engage in oral sex, and that masturbation is a great evil. Oral sex: http://lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter.shtml page two: http://lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter1.shtml Masturbation: http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/masturbation.htm Mormon leader Boyd Packer comes out with an incredibly abusive anti-masturbation pamphlet which is shared very widely with all Mormon boys. Text in pamphlet: http://www.lds-mormon.com/only.shtml Evangelical Christian fuckers buy into the same abusive bullshit. And then fucking TEDx allows repackagers of ultra-right religious shame in a supposedly "secular" form. Thanks TEDx & TED, and go to hell. -------------- Keep masturbating!
Share your masturbation experiences with your partner!
Help your partner start masturbating! Even be so bold as to search for porn 2.0 on the internet (real people engage in real sex, not whores showing a false view - hard to find, but may you can find it). Use that you find to help to expand your repertoire with your real life partner! Your brain isn't being hijacked, no more than breathing hijacks your body. Sex is a key part of who we are - inseparable. That's why people who teach us to feel bad for being sexual animals are evil, even sexual repackagers of such abusive shame. Yes there's some value in limited amounts of shame if a given activity leads to a dead end. But medium or long term abstinence from masturbation is an inherent abuse. Religions like Mormonism & Evangelical Christianity DO hijack human sexuality, for their own nefarious ends. They subvert normal natural humanity for their own evil ends. And "nofap" is a supposedly secular apology for this subversion. Suicide in Mormonism from anti-masturbation bull, as in the The Godmakers documentary:
Start with 8 (children), as an ultra-hard-line Mormon family.
Later 3 get sucked into a man-hating crazy-woman-led cult. The 3 all change their last names to that of the cult leader (the Cropper cult of Logan, Utah). 1 of the 3 Cropper cult converts later decides he's gay, while still working at BYU.
More recently 1 of the 8 decides to "change" from a man to a woman (not a Cropper cult 3, but another of the 8), leaving his children homeless and a broken home.
1 commits suicide (also separate from the 3 Cropper cult ones - probably because of irritable bowel syndrome in part, and who knows why else).
What are the causes? Why all this chaos in an ultra-right ultra-hard-line Mormon family?
Here's some theories:
A. Too much cheap ground beef as a child, and too much rice and beans? Cheapy poor-person possibly-third-world style nutrition as children, for all 8.
B. Parents too strict ultra Mormon. Father very angry and sometimes violent. Mother extreme passive aggressive my way or the highway type person re being a strict Mormon.
E. Ultra-rightist cults can spawn new sub-cults. A woman named Cropper in Logan, Utah started.a sub-cult branched from ultra Mormonism. She hates men and does laying on of hands, and has visions where she tell her adherents that all men are evil.
Three of my brother's children were sucked into this strange sub-cult in Logan. They all changed their last names to Cropper, and they now have zero contact with my brother or anyone in my "normal" regular family.
F. Ultra-right religion can cause a worse abuse when a child or adult rebels and becomes a permissive relativist ultra leftist.
See item C for more details.
G. Memetic diseases of the left can at times be more abusive and destructive than those of the right.
Families and lives are destroyed by leftist meme sets.
H. To have all this chaos, my ultra extreme angry passive and non-passive aggressive (sometimes violent) brother and his wife have set up a meat grinder somehow. Many of their children have been fucked up and damaged by the "my way or the highway" type of upbringing.
But on the other hand permissive relativist liberalism is also a meat grinder.
In the past I had a gay uncle who turned his back on his straight family, and he died of AIDS as a result. He was a victim of both the extreme right and the extreme left.
So with the latest news that one nephew of mine just destroyed his family because he's chosen to "change" his sex: this man IS a fucking victim of moronic leftist culture which claims that whatever damn fool thing pops into your head should be acted upon.
A marriage and family, destroyed.
Two wonderful little girls, ages 4 and 1, out on the street.
Permissive gay and tranny accepting leftist culture IS to blame for this! But so are his my way or the highway parents, AS IS anti-heathy-sex Mormonism.
Open ended acceptance of all things ，LGBT results in the destruction of lives! Bruce Jenner for example is a moron who's also a victim of permissive leftistism.
My uncle who jumped from ultra conservative Manti, Utah style Mormonism to San Francisco put your John Thomas in a glory hole liberalism was a fool and a victim of both the left and the right.
My longer standing pedophile-friend-accepting gay nephew is s victim of the anti-masturbation anti-positive sex Mormonism, AND permissive leftistism.
My newly transgender nephew and his children and his now destroyed family are victims of the meat grinder nature of his patents' ultra conservative strict angry violent Mormonism, and also of permissive relativist leftistism.
Lives are destroyed by ultra rightism and ultra leftistism. A ping pong game that grinds people down to dust.
Here is the general text of a complaint I have filed with various federal & state agencies regarding the University of Utah Orthopedic Center, and a doctor I tried to see there today for knee and foot pain.
----------------------
June 22, 2015
Complaint against:
1. Dr. David J. Petron
2. The medical assistants who spoke with me during my 6-22-15 7:45am visit to the University of Utah Orthopedic Center.
3. The University of Utah Orthopedic Center, 590 Wakara Way, Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 (801) 587-7109
4. The University of Utah Hospitals & Clinics, 50 North Medical Drive, Salt Lake City, Utah (801) 581-2121
Summary of complaint:
Being overweight is a large contributing to the status of my health. Being able to be accurately weighed during my health care visits needs to be a key part of my care. I have arthritis in my hips, knees, and feet. My arthritis directly impacts my ability to walk and hike. Being overweight makes my arthritis worse.
On the morning of June 22, 2015 I was turned away from the University of Utah orthopedic center, because I requested that I be allowed to be weighed on a scale in the clinic before I saw the doctor I was scheduled to see.
Scheduled for 7:45am on 6-22-15 with Dr. David Petron.
Details of visit:
Arrived at the clinic at about 7:32am.
Was handed a health survey electronic tablet. Started answering the survey.
A medical assistant young women took me back to an exam room. I asked the woman if I could quickly use the restroom. She agreed.
When I returned from the restroom the survey tablet screen had turned black. I asked the woman why. She said there was no need to deal with that now. Her tone was generally curt and dismissive.
The medical assistant asked about my height and weight. I told her my height and approximate weight. But I also asked her if I could be weight on a scale, so that we all weren't just guessing.
The medical assistant told me that no scale was available "in their hallway."
The medical assistant finished her questions and walked out of the room.
I waited more time for Dr. Petron to come into the room.
While waiting I went to use the restroom a second time. While near the restroom I spent 30 seconds going out (via an external public atrium hallway) and verified that another clinic on the 2nd floor of the orthopedic center had a patient scale available. The staff at the very near clinic answered yes, that they did have a scale.
Within 60 seconds of my departure from the restroom near Dr. Petron's exam rooms I returned to his clinic area. I informed the staff that the other 2nd floor clinic in fact had a scale I could use to be weighed. However the staff at that point refused to take me back to the exam room I had been placed in just a couple of minutes before.
10 to 15 minutes later a manager man came out and told me that Dr. Petron was refusing to see me because I had walked out of the exam room.
I explained to the manager that I walked out to use the restroom, and I quickly checked to see if a scale was available at a nearby clinic just a very short walk down the 2nd floor atrium hallway, because the medical assistants refused to do any such checking themselves.
At no time did I actually see Dr. Petron first hand, and I never had a conversation with him. All my talking before I spoke with a manager was with Dr. Petron's medical assistants.
The manager said that maybe he could get me in to see a foot doctor, but that Dr. Petron would not see me, "because he was busy."
I told the manager that I was the first person on the schedule, and the matter of being too busy to see me was a ridiculous claim.
When the medical assistant staff refused to see if there was a scale I could be weighed on, I then had the gall to do such checking myself, for 30 to 60 seconds, while using the restroom and while waiting for Dr. Petron.
Dr. Petron never made any effort whatsoever to speak with me in person about the matter. He simply allowed his staff to, in the first instance, act rudely. Rudely about the health survey electronic pad turning off. Rudely about my repeated requests to be weighed before I saw Dr. Petron. And he refused to speak with me directly before booting me out the door.
I am overweight. I was morbidly obese in the past. I have arthritis in multiple joints. And my weight and arthritis and the associated high levels of pain all does impact my ability to walk, and to engage in exercise activities such as hiking. It also impacts my ability to care for my two kids.
Today I was booted for simply asking to be weighed, and after spending 30 seconds to verify that a scale was in fact available in a very near part of the building, and after lower-level staff refused to check to see if a scale was available nearby and after they brushed off my weighing request.
Being properly weighed at each visit is a key part of my care.
Strange that Dr. Petron and his staff refuse such requests.
And if a patient has the gall to spend 30 seconds to verify that a scale is available very near in the building and on the same floor (after low level staff refuse & brush off his requests), that's enough for Dr. Petron to boot you out the door.
Unfriendly. Pompous. Rude. Uncaring. This atmosphere pervades the orthopedic center now, apparently.
And a full willingness to actively retaliate against patients who take simple actions to find out if a given simple medical test (eg: being weighed on a scale) is in fact easily available in a very nearby part of a given building.
Yes there are caring providers at the university. But there's also some providers who, at the drop of a very small feather, and on a whim, will turn people away.
A sports medicine doctor who refuses to weigh his patients.
A sports medicine doctor who boots long standing patients quickly out the door if they have the gall to verify that a patient scale is available nearby to use.
Strange.
For a patient with a history of weight issues, and where weight issues are a large contributing factor to his health, that's a very strange stance to take.
Discrimination claim: That the University of Utah Orthopedic Center, and Dr. David J. Petron, actively discriminate against people who are overweight, and whose weight has a high impact on their health. A refusal to follow any reasonably conversational health care process before booting a patient out the door. No conversation with Dr. Petron at all - just with dismissive rude lower level staff who refused my weighing request. And when I spend 30 seconds out in an external public hallway during a very brief restroom visit break period to verify that a scale was in fact available, that's enough for Petron to simply & easily & quickly boot people such as myself right out the door, in spite of my history with the orthopedic center as a past surgical patient, and a general patient of the University including when I was even more obese at a morbid-type level. Also in spite of the fact that my entire family are patients of the University, and in spite of my wife having kids born at the U Hospital.
Doctors with zero patience for their patients really don't deserve to be within the medical profession.
And a State health care institution should be interested in serving the public who pay their salaries, and serving the citizenry generally as a whole.
So this is not just a matter of being turned away by Dr. Petron today, I was also essentially turned away by the State of Utah today, because I asked to be weighed on a scale, and because I had the gall to verify that a scale was easily & readily available on the same floor of a State of Utah facility. I needed to be weighed as a key part of my health care. They were angry that I asked. They were angry that I checked when they in the first instance refused to check. And they happily booted me out the door when I came & told them I could be easily weighed at the office very near to their office all on the 2nd floor of the Orthopedic Center.
At the Orthopedic Center I have had two carpal tunnel surgeries, and I've had knee evaluations done there.
My wife had babies at the U of U Hospital.
My wife and my kids are patients of the University.
When a doctor and his staff act very rudely, and when they turn people such as myself away, not just my health care is impacted. The care of my entire family is impacted.
=============
June 22 addendum - quotes from related social media comments:
Federal & state agencies have been informed. Also the accrediting agency who accredits the University Hospital.
The
days when a doctor and his staff can act in such a rude and
unprofessional and uncaring manner, act in a vacuum that is, have
passed.
And for a State of Utah organization to act in this way really is pitiful. The citizenry of this state deserve better.
Today
I was treated with essentially zero care. The medical assistant who
first met me, her attitude, typified the entire visit. Rude. Curt.
Dismissive. And when I pressed to be weighed, outright anger and threats
of ejection quickly came. Then your Dr. Petron followed through and
booted me out the door - all because I wanted to be weighed. It was too
much for him.
A patient, standing up for his rights - too much for the pompous rude god-complex doctors w/in some of your clinics.
Patients
are way at the bottom of the pile at the University. God-complex
doctors are at the top. No one listens to the concerns of patients
there.
===
Heart disease is probably made worse when patients visit rude doctors, for example Dr. Petron at the Orthopedic Center.
Also
being able to exercise effectively can help with your heart, as can
loosing weight. But there's no scales available for patients to use at
the orthopedic center. If you ask to be weighed by one, even if they
have one, you'll be booted out the door.
Thanks,
University of Utah Health Care. Thanks to the angry MAs at Petron's
office. Thanks to the angry managers who helped carry out the "protocol"
of completely ignoring the requests of patients - a request to be
weighed. Too much for a sports doctor to handle.
When a patient pops their head up at some locations of the University system, a game of whack-a-mole is then engaged.
"You speak up? You question my god-like-status as a doctor? You're out of here!" --- is the general response.
Heart disease awaits.=============
June 23 addendum:
University Hospital staff saw some of the above posts on their main Facebook page. They deleted them all, and they blocked the ability for my regular Facebook account to post on their main Facebook page.
I have just transmitted the following complaint addendum to the University of Utah Office of Equal Opportunity. The following addendum text will also be shared with relevant federal & state authorities.
---
As a follow up to my 6-22-2015 complaint, further adverse action has been taken against myself and my family by the University.
The
University of Utah Hospitals & Clinics maintains a public Facebook
page. I posted a complaint on that public forum page where the Hospital
has chosen to have a public presence, and to allow public comments.
The
hospital staff who operate their public-facing public-forum Facebook
page saw my complaint notes, deleted all of them, and then blocked my
regular Facebook account from being able to post any comments there
going forward.
So my regular Facebook account has been
completely blocked by Hospital staff from being able to post in a public
forum where the Hospital maintains a public presence.
Members of the public may well comment on their treatment at University facilities in that forum.
To block & censor comments from members of the public in that forum really is inappropriate - for a public entity.
The
University of Utah is a part of the State of Utah. The U Hospital is
not a private hospital and their doctors are not private employees.
Rather
than having any dialogue, their general
response has been so far to a.) refuse to talk, b.) refuse to have
relevant medical
managers & doctors call me on the phone [after requests were made to
the Hospital customer service dept.], and c.) attempt to censor any and
all
complaints I may make about the University in public forums - where
their staff can click on the delete & block buttons.
State of
Utah employees clicking delete on comments from members of the public,
comments from patients, comments made in a fully public forum where the
University Hospitals & Clinics have chosen to have a public
presence.
=============
June 24 addendum:
Copy of 6-24 email sent to the University of Utah Office of Equal Opportunity:
, they have a "posts to page" section where any member of the public can post comments.
There
is still one complaint on there from someone else about a prisoner who
died due to scheduling error at the hospital. But my posts were deleted
by U staff.
I posted:
1. The text of my UOEO [University of Utah Office of Equal Opportunity] complaint.
2. An addendum comment.
3. A comment in response to a posting of the U Hospital on their main page.
All
of these comments fell within the bounds of a public-forum type
exchange. Initially someone responded asking for my contact info so that
customer service could contact me. Then a few hours later all of my
posts had been deleted, and my ability to post anything whatsoever on
that particular page had been blocked by hospital staff (page owners on
Facebook can block certain people from being able to post).
Page
owners on Facebook can decide to allow posts or not generally, or to
allow "posts to page" or not. But when those features are enabled it's
generally understood that anyone can post.
A private
group or individual blocking people from their Facebook page is one
thing. A page which is put out by a State of Utah entity (a
government-set-up group more directly covered by the First Amendment
& so on) which censors comments and blocks citizens is quite
another.
And this is all in addition to what's
occurred with my virtual excommunication from the Orthopedic Center in
response to being asked to be easily and quickly weighed on a scale,
well before Dr. Petron was ready to see me.
The first
MA woman who saw me asked my weight. In response I asked to be weighed
on a scale. And things went down hill from there. Continual deferments.
More irritation and anger on their part. And when, during a quick second
restroom break (needed because I take blood pressure medicines) I had
the gall to verify that a scale was in fact easily & readily
available, that was too much for them. They had plenty of time to weigh
me before Petron was ready to go into a room with me. And when I pressed
to be weighed when Petron was ready, that made them even more angry. An
MA young man stated that they weren't sure if Petron could see me
because he was busy. But I was the first person on his schedule that
day. And then several minutes later a manager man claimed that Petron
didn't want to see me because I "walked out." That wasn't true either
really. Again during a very quick second restroom break well before
Petron was ready to go into a room with me I simply verified that a
scale was in fact easily available at another very close clinic on the
second floor. I quickly came back & asked the front end receptionist
to let me back and to tell the MAs that I had found a scale I could be
weighed on. But I was never brought back in. They let the clock run.
Then a male MA came out and I saw Petron in the far distance. The male
MA spoke to me ultimatum-style, and said "do you want to see Petron or
not?" I responded that I wanted to be weighed on a scale as part of the
visit. The male MA walked with me to the other clinic & then
disappeared. As he walked he stated that he wasn't sure if Petron could
see me. Then 10 to 15 minutes later a manager man came out to deliver
the excommunication. The manager man was angry and upset also. He said
it was Petron's protocol to not weigh anyone, and that Petron would not
see me because I had "walked out." He also said Petron was too busy to
see me. I told the manager that I was the first person on Petron's
schedule, and so the "too busy" claim was ridiculous. I then left.
Because
took the initiative myself to get an accurate weight, so that I could
answer the first MAs question accurately, that made them even more
angry. And so they retaliated in the ways they did - by expressing
anger, by expressing irritation, by deferring my request and making me
wait out in the atrium-waiting room for several minutes, and then by
claiming that Petron could not see me because he was busy and because "I
had walked out." It was all very disingenuous and strange.
They
refused to let me back in after a second restroom break. They refused
to walk with me to the other 2nd floor clinic well before Petron was
ready to see me, so that I could be weighed there. They refused to have
Petron talk with me before a.) making me wait 10 to 15 minutes more, and
before b.) having a manager booting me out.
Separately
I have requested of the Orthopedic Center management that they not will
myself or my insurance company for the 6-22 7:45AM appointment. They
have not responded.
[wife's name] - my wife & patient of the Midwife group, and of Greenwood dental & family care.
[children's names], my children, patients of Greenwood pediatrics and family care, born at the U hospital.
When staff at the U hospital & clinics act in this way, the care of an entire family is impacted.
When other U hospital staff act to censor and shut me up on their public Facebook page, our care is impacted.
I
simply asked to be weighed in direct response to a question about my
weight from an MA. For several years I was morbidly obese, and I'm
perhaps up to 50 to 70 pounds overweight now. I have high levels of left
foot & knee pain which are directly impacted by my weight. So being
asked to be weighed in response to an MA's question, and while visiting
a sports medicine doctor, seems like a reasonable request. Weight
tracking would be a highly useful activity for such a person I would
think.
I took some initiative during a very quick restroom break
well before a doctor was ready to see me that a scale was available. But
that initiative was too much for these people.
===
Copy of related 6-24 email sent to the University Hospital customer service department:
Today I found the following note on another U page:
It's
also incompatible with the operation of a government. The University is
a part of the State of Utah, and Utah is a state within the USA, and
therefore is subject to the First Amendment. Employees at the U are
government employees.
On the main Facebook page for the University Hospital, at https://www.facebook.com/UofUHealthCare , you have a "posts to page" section where any member of the public can post comments.
There
is still one complaint on there from someone else about a prisoner who
died due to scheduling error at the hospital. But my posts put on there
this week were all deleted by U staff.
I posted:
1. The text of my UOEO complaint. 2. An addendum comment. 3. A comment in response to a posting of the U Hospital on their main page.
All
of these comments fell within the bounds of a public-forum type
exchange. Initially someone responded asking for my contact info so that
customer service could contact me. Then a few hours later all of my
posts had been deleted, and my ability to post anything whatsoever on
that particular page had been blocked by hospital staff (page owners on
Facebook can block certain people from being able to post).
Page
owners on Facebook can decide to allow posts or not generally, or to
allow "posts to page" or not. But when those features are enabled it's
generally understood that anyone can post.
A private group or
individual blocking people from their Facebook page is one thing. A page
which is put out by a State of Utah entity (a government-set-up group
more directly covered by the First Amendment & so on) which censors
comments and blocks citizens is quite another.
Your State of Utah
employed staff have actively censored and blocked my speech, in a
public forum, a forum where other members of the public are still
allowed to comment, including a still-present comment put on there by
someone complaining about the death of a prisoner due to a scheduling
error. You have attempted to shut me up as a patient.
And this is
all in addition to what's occurred with my virtual excommunication from
the Orthopedic Center in response to being asked to be easily and
quickly weighed on a scale, well before Dr. Petron was ready to see me
[wife's name] - my wife & patient of the Midwife group, and of Greenwood dental & family care. [children's names], my children, patients of Greenwood pediatrics and family care, born at the U hospital.
When staff at the U hospital & clinics act in this way, the care of an entire family is impacted.
When other U hospital staff act to censor and shut me up on their public Facebook page, our care is impacted.
I
simply asked to be weighed in direct response to a question about my
weight from an MA. For several years I was morbidly obese, and I'm
perhaps up to 50 to 70 pounds overweight now. I have high levels of left
foot & knee pain which are directly impacted by my weight. So being
asked to be weighed in response to an MA's question, and while visiting
a sports medicine doctor, seems like a reasonable request. Weight
tracking would be a highly useful activity for such a person I would
think.
I took some initiative during a very quick restroom break
well before a doctor was ready to see me that a scale was available. But
that initiative was too much for these people.
=========== September 22, 2015 addendum: ===========
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jonathan
Date: Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 7:31 AM
Subject: Orthopedic Center complaint follow up
To: david.entwistle@hsc.utah.edu, BRIAN NICHOLLS <Brian.Nicholls@utah.edu>
Cc: david.petron@hsc.utah.edu, Michael S Bown <michael.bown@hsc.utah.edu>
Request for the University Hospital customer service department:
That
the entirety of my complaint regarding the Orthopedic Center be
reviewed by a Hospital review committee. The OEO/AA office as completed
their (faulty & flawed) report. And so I now request a "committee"
review of my complaint, as is my right.
The
blocking from Facebook was a de facto act of excommunication, and FULLY
INAPPROPRIATE ACT FOR A GOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION (since the attached
OEO/AA PDF report has introduced the ALL CAPS method of response to our
dialogue, I'm going to use a bit of that method also here), as was the
ejection by Petron's staff on the date in question. Ask to be weighed on
a scale. Get booted out the door in response. No questions. Nothing.
Just, out - you - go, you patient who had the gall to push back against
rude treatment by an MA, and a doctor who doesn't spend one second
talking to you before he allows his staff to summarily boot you.
It's
worth noting that the Orthopedic Center has "mood" evaluation
electronic pads in use which ask question after question regarding mood.
May I suggest that you begin having the staff at the Orthopedic Center
filling out those questionnaires themselves before they begin seeing
patients.
Also acts of free speech on
Facebook, engaging the First Amendment (redress of grievances), cannot
and must not be abridged. Labeling my free speech online regarding the
University as "spam" is an abuse (in an increasing list of University
abuses). Again the University is a GOVERNMENTAL organization, not a
private one. You ARE bound by the First Amendment, and citizens have
every right to tell their government & fellow citizens when they
believe problems are present with the operation of government.
A quick google search on the First Amendment reveals the following sentence: "...The
right to petition government for redress of grievances is the right to
make a complaint to, or seek the assistance of, one's government,
without fear of punishment or reprisals..."
WITHOUT FEAR OF REPRISALS!?!?
Is labeling the free speech of a patient and citizen as "spam" a reprisal? Yes of course.
Categorizing
the words of a patient as "spam" is inappropriate and probably illegal
classification of speech by a citizen. It's your jobs to listen, not to
label speech by patients as spam.
Reprisals
and retaliation in response to speech are what the University appears
to be all about these days. A separate example is included below. But
these two examples are not the only ones my family has seen and
experienced first hand.
Mr. Nichols
and Mr. Entwistle, the University is not a private organization, even as
you both either serve as an enabling force for such an assumption, or
as you actively pursue and attempt to enforce that assumption.
A de facto church being in operation at the U and within the U.
It's par for the course, within Utah.
A
church type culture and organizational structure and response from a
State governmental entity. Belief maintenance. Heresy Trials.
Excommunications. Patients right on the bottom. Doctors & hygienists
and medical assistants and clinical managers - they are all way far
above whatever a lowly patient may claim or state.
THERE WAS CAUSE for my filing complaints. When no cause is the preferred outcome, then no cause will be found.
Why
are the U hospitals & clinics so very averse to complaints, and why
do patients who press for reasonable courteous honest treatment get so
easily booted like trash?
Give an honest account regarding poor treatment.
Get booted in response.
Get blocked on Facebook.
Get your free speech accounting labeled as spam.
The abuses from the University keep piling up.
The
entirety of the response of the University so far to this matter
represents an abuse. More evidence of the abusive culture is quoted
below.
People at the University are more interested in covering their own rear ends, than in quality patient care.
This is the message I shall be sharing with my friends & family, until such time as I am convinced of the counter argument.
Why
does my family continue going to the University? Because the Utah
government is MY government, in spite of all of your efforts to treat
the University like your own personal private club.
And because there are some good providers at the University, who are good IN SPITE OF the abusive culture there.
Sincerely,
Jonathan
--------------quote begins of another example of University abusiveness:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jonathan
Date: Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM
Subject:
University of Utah School of Dentistry and Leslie Berg: direct
retaliation and ejection, if you complain about poor treatment.
To: Craig Proctor <craig.proctor@hsc.utah.edu>
Cc: Michael S Bown <Michael.bown@hsc.utah.edu>, david.entwistle@hsc.utah.edu
September 21, 2015 update, regarding the University of Utah School of Dentistry:
On
July 20, 2015 my wife & I had back to back visits at the Greenwood
Center location for the University of Utah School of Dentistry.
Problems noticed:
Problem 1: For the 7-20-2015 visits or myself and my wife the hygienist involved was not particularly friendly.
Problem
2: For the 7-20-2015 visit for myself, my cleaning was incredibly
painful. No anesthesia was offered for me. If in the mind(s) of the
relevant staff root planing was being done, at no time was the option of
anesthesia offered.
Problem 3: For the 7-20-2015 visit for
myself, root planing was billed out for, even though only a regular
cleaning was scheduled. At no time prior to or during our visit did
anyone warn or tell us a non-regular cleaning was going to be done, or
was being done while it was happening.
Problem 4: While I did
receive a few conciliatory phone calls from a dental medical director,
Dr. Craig Proctor, the regular manager for the clinic, a public employee
by the name of Leslie Berg, is very angry that I have complained about
her clinic to people within & outside the University (as per a
9-21-2015 conversation I had with her).
On 9-21-2015 I had an
extended conversation with Ms. Leslie Berg, a public employee of the
University, and manager over the School of Dentistry clinics.
I
wanted to speak with Ms. Berg because of insurance and clerical issues
for the 7-20-2015 claims (in-network vs out-of-network issues), and so
as to help ensure the 7-20 visits for myself and my wife would be
covered as "in network" with my insurance.
Ms. Berg's tone and approach was essentially the exact opposite of Dr. Proctor's.
Ms. Berg was angry, angry that I had complained to anyone about problems with the visits.
Ms.
Berg wanted myself and my wife, out the clinic door, permanently, in as
much as she said to me "I don't know why you want to continue to come
to our clinic if you are going to complain about us to the university
and to other parties." She made this point several times during our
9-21-2015 chat, and was quite upset that I had complained about the
visit to other University entities and to entities outside the
University.
From Ms. Leslie Berg of the University of Utah we
have a direct attempt at retaliation, retaliation in response to my
complaining about what happened during the 7-20 visits for myself and my
wife.
Ms. Berg said that I had "demanded" to speak with her on
9-21. I told her that I had requested to speak with her, because
clerical type network insurance problems which seemed more in her sphere
of influence as opposed to that of Dr. Proctor, and I explained this to
her staff. But Ms. Berg choose to characterize my request as a
"demand."
Ms. Berg said that she "did not like my approach." This
was her first volley in what became an argument with Ms. Berg. In our
9-21 chat she was combative and retaliatory, and her actions directly
served to undercut the otherwise good work of Dr. Proctor. Again Dr.
Proctor was conciliatory and cordial and kind. Ms. Berg was angry and
irritated, and she sought to deflect-at-all-costs any and all complaints
about bad-and-poor actions of her staff.
Ms. Berg's preference
was to call myself and my wife, as patients of the University, liars,
rather than to take ownership of any miscommunication or lack of
communication or inappropriate actions on the part of her staff.
Ms. Berg also did not address the issue of anesthesia during the supposed "root planing:" None Was Offered to me.
At the University of Utah, if you complain as a patient, a game of whack-a-mole is engaged.
Again.
And again.
And again.
Dr.
Proctor tried to not do this, but Ms. Leslie Berg picked up the virtual
mallet today (9-21) as from the referenced game, and began virtually
whacking away at my family.
Examples of how the game has played out with the dental clinic (paraphrasing Ms. Berg's direct responses):
Me and my family: "The hygienist was rude to us."
The
whack received from Ms. Berg in response: No comment, and "we don't
like the fact that you complained to other parts of the University and
to external entities."
Me and my family: "The hygienist never
warned me she would code my visit as 'root planing' even though only a
regular cleaning was scheduled."
The whack received from Ms. Berg
in response: "Our hygienist and the resident doctor involved both claim
they gave you proper notice. So it's your word against theirs, period,
end of story, and I'm probably going to give more weight to what they
claim as opposed to what you and your family are claiming."
My
response to the above whack: My claim is that the hygienist was rude and
that she never warned me about doing any root planing during a
regularly-scheduled cleaning. I was never warned, at all, and no
anesthesia was offered for the supposed 'root planing,' as is common
when such procedures are engaged.
The whack received from Ms.
Berg in response: "I am upset that you complained about our clinic to
other University departments and to external entities. Wouldn't you be
happier going elsewhere?"
My response to the above whack: "Dr.
Proctor's response to our complaint was positive. Ms. Berg's response is
the exact opposite of Dr. Proctor's in tone & substance."
The
reason I felt it necessary to escalate the issue to other parties was
because Ms. Berg was completely unreachable via phone prior to my
escalations. She never returned my phone calls. No return voicemail.
Nothing. And her staff at the clinics never take messages so that she
can call patients back in a timely manner.
But I ask myself now
what would have happened if she would have called me back? Her tone is
so very abusive & negative now, now that I have finally spoken to
her - I bet her tone would have been inappropriate from the beginning,
had spoken with her earlier.
The whack received from Ms. Berg:
You "demanded" to speak with me today even though Dr. Proctor said that
only he should be speaking with you moving forward.
My response:
"I requested to speak with you because of clerical insurance 'in vs out'
of network errors and issues, and it seemed like you would be the best
person to speak to about such issues. I did not 'demand' to speak with
you. I simply explained the situation to your staff today, and that the
problems seemed more relevant to your scope of work.
The whack received from Ms. Berg: "I am going to end this conversation, now." Click.
My
response: Leslie Berg has been the manager of the U of U Dental School
clinics yesterday, today, and she probably will be the manager moving
forward.
With such a manager, one who is fully willing to engage
in direct retaliation against patients who make complaints, first and
foremost because patients have the gall to complain & raise their
voice, is not a person who can be trusted with the medical care of my
family.
Dr. Proctor is a good man.
Leslie Berg is undercutting his good work.
After
Ms. Berg hung up on me today I phoned a professional dental association
and spoke with it's director, to have this man help me as a kind of
sounding-board.
Their director shared with me the following concerns regarding the U dental school, as follows (paraphrasing what he shared):
1. The U School of Dentistry is very top-heavy.
2. The U School of Dentistry has experienced a great deal of turn around regarding their upper leadership.
3.
The U School of Dentistry, and the U hospital generally, doesn't really
care if a patient is unhappy with treatment. Entrenched government
employees don't have any incentive to change or act better.
4.
The U is a government agency, and entrenched employees like Leslie Berg
could apparently care less what patients think or what their experiences
are.
5. Miscommunication is a fact of life in dentistry, and
patients being properly warned about procedures up-front is also a
continuing issue professional dental associations are trying to help
with.
6. Maybe the University will let Ms. Berg go if this is how she's going to act and if this is how she's going to treat patients.
----end of paraphrases & impressions from a director of a professional dental association.
Regarding item 6, one can only hope Ms. Berg will be let go soon from University employment.
But
there is a great tendency within the University to pounce on patients
who complain. To iron-fistedly stand by providers who act badly. To
defend the status quo, even if that means patients who complain are
booted right out the door - booted without any sort of due process.
Not really appropriate actions for a governmental agency, nor for a "caring" hospital.
Step 1: Patient has a bad experience with a given provider.
Step 2: Patient complains.
Step 3: Patient is retaliated against, retaliation which usually includes quick booting out the door in response.
The University cannot and does not tolerate complaints from patients.
Dr.
Proctor is an anomaly within the current abusive culture. A man who did
try to be conciliatory. But his own entrenched staff acts to directly
undercut his good actions & good intentions.
The University
of Utah is not a church, but parts of it still operate like one. Belief
maintenance. Heresy trials. Excommunications. These tools are all
actively used, today, by University staff.
The First Amendment does apply.
"Congress
shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Complaining
about the U dental clinic to other U departments, and to relevant
external organizations, are all attempts to "petition my government for a
redress of grievances."
Ms. Leslie Berg acted directly to
attempt to abridge this guaranteed right of my family. The right to
complain about poor treatment from governmental officials who operate
health clinics.
Retaliation in response to my usage of the First Amendment.
Yes
the University is not a church, and it's also bound by the Constitution
and so on. Employees like Ms. Berg don't know who their working for,
nor are they familiar with how good dental practice is and should be
done.
My wife is Chinese, and I wonder if that was the
reason the hygienist was upset during our 7-20 visit? Was that the
reason the hygienist coded the visit for root planing even though no
warning was given for the change? Was that the reason she engaged a very
painful procedure with no anesthesia being offered? Was that the reason
she is now completely misrepresenting what I was told during my visit
regarding what exactly was going to be done?
We came to the
University School of Dentistry because translation services are
offered. We suspect we're being treated badly because of the race of my
wife, and because we have a "mixed-race" family.
Why else would we be treated badly?
Just because U employees & managers really hate complaints from patients?
Thank you for your patience with this process. I have attached an electronic copy of the report sent to you via U.S. Mail. Please let me
know if you have any questions or concerns.
Respectfully,
Brian
Brian Jay Nicholls, J.D.
Equal Opportunity Consultant
Office of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action
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P
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=========== end of September 22, 2015 addendum ===========
