Q. Do you all see a difference between being an atheist and being anti religion?
A. Atheist / Humanist / Secular / Unitarian Univeralist groups all have the trappings of a religion. They are naturally & of course "anti" to other religions they disagree with, just as all religions are "anti" to other religions.
Not everything is equal. Some religions, including the religion of atheism, do make valid claims & contentions about the problems with other religions.
The UUs will admit their group is a religion, "but with no dogma." However that claim of theirs is basically a lie.
Most atheist & secular groups will & do have (unless great effort is made to avoid it) de facto or outwardly expressed dogmas, doctrines, tenants, heresy trials, excommunications, priests, elders, and prophets.
The trappings of religion appear to be part of human nature, and thus are VERY difficult to exclude from ANY social group formed by humans. Meme set (belief) maintenance. Heresy trials. Excommunication. And so on. These are a few of religion's favorite things.
The god thing is not so much an issue, really - when we consider how religious liberals use the term. The muff mouthed Templeton Foundation smoke generator Krista Tippett has shown us the way: for the liberal god can mean anything you want. She & her cohorts strongly want to continue to use the "g" term even if their definition essentially means nothing.
But in any case, like I say liberal religion (which includes most atheist groups) includes dogma, doctrines, tenants, heresy trials, excommunications, priests, elders, and prophets - and that's the main problem, and why they ARE religions in my view.
A "break" from the religious tradition would entail the following key principles:
1. Not being doctrinally tied to any one political AND social agenda.
2. Being willing to accept what honest science, honest experience, honest history, fully uncensored & open discussion, and fully open membership, may result in. A free & open exchange of ideas. A crucible. Science has shown as the way, as have people like Pinker & Hitchens.
3. Being willing to challenge our own suppositions, really challenge them & not just give lip service to such challenges. Are your beliefs falsifiable? From what I've seen many atheists do not maintain their beliefs are, not really. G term this G term that. It's not so much about the G term. It's about doctrines, dogmas, and ideologies, and agendas we ourselves are unwilling to question.
4. Not having de facto heresy trials for people who disagree with the group-leader's positions or beliefs.
5. Not having de facto excommunication trials for people who disagree with the group-leader's positions or beliefs.
6. God forbid, being willing to accept that some aspects of social conservatism may actually have some value to human happiness & well being. The fact that religion is a natural phenomenon (ref Daniel Dennett) cuts both ways.
7. However we have to be careful of the "naturalistic fallacy." Just because something is natural doesn't mean that activity is helpful to humanity. And yet, fully-naturally highly-valuable actions & activities can be fully couched within fully-natural religion. This is a hard pill for the recoverer from an abusive cult like Mormonism to accept. Mormonism by it's own actions is hurting the otherwise good causes they advocate for. Revisionist history. Harsh treatment of heretics. Child abuse. Their extreme abusive actions actually HURT the otherwise good things they may advocate for. Their way-over-the-top responses to things like masturbation, well, it pushes people WAY over to the other side - but the other side isn't any better. But it takes time for an exmo to learn this - via first hand experience, and taking a step back from ALL the craziness on ALL sides.
Additional related thoughts:
Humans are not a tabula rasa. Pinker showed this via his most excellent book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_chalks_it_up_to_the_blank_slate
Libertarians are "lightly" tolerated in atheist groups. Social conservatives are not. Such a state of affairs indicates a problematic naivete which is highly common among "liberals," speaking as a liberal myself perhaps for the most part.
Liberals don't know crap about what happens in conservative religions. They pretty much know nothing about Islam for example. AND they also know nothing about what happens within their own camp on the ultra-left side.
Conservatives have their problems. But the answer or solution to a given problem is not always the exact opposite view. Being willing to take a step back from our little realm & sphere of experience helps to see where the real truth may lie.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com
Tuesday, April 29, 2014
Saturday, April 26, 2014
Latest thoughts on homosexuality & gay marriage - as of April 26, 2014
Point three is valid.
All the other points are either purposefully wrong, stupid, or lies.
Hey, whomever created that image with collections of mostly outrageously untrue & abusive quotes, seeing stuff like that pushes people like me ever more into the pro-gay-marriage camp.
I have examined both sides, or is it three sides?
A gay uncle who died of AIDS leaving his straight family with no father.
A gay nephew who leads an incredibly petty & shallow life.
On the other hand I very much appreciate the work of people like Stephen Fry and Oscar Wilde. I also have seen first hand how some gay people are much more service oriented, and who appear to have their heads screwed on much more than my Angel Reading Boy Chasing Convicted Pedophile Friend Accepting gay nephew.
There are atheists who agree with concerns about homosexuality:
Black Atheists of Atlanta
Greek Culture - Black Atheist Of Atlanta - 05-23-11:
Gay Zeus & Ganymede - Black Atheist Of Atlanta - 08-08-11
Part 1:
Part 2:
Part 3:
------------------
Is Homosexuality Destructive For The Black Family?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kka3ECinb6M
------------------
However I don't believe they'd agree with too many more points than point three on your photo.
Serial killers? That is destructive abusive bullshit, no question.
"Consider the source." This phrase is pushing me more & more toward the pro-gay camp. Now, I do still believe ALL sides need to be questioned. Unlike some I AM willing to at least listen to the few seculars who are either socially moderate or conservative.
As we know, it's not the number of people who believe in something, it's whether the ideas are actually valid or not.
A recent post of mine:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/03/listening-to-narth-guy-issues-more.html
What you'll find on my blog is the playing out of a tension between several forces. The ultra-pro-gay-everything-else-be-damned position within the secular community, and the built-in desire to be more, well, pro-reproduction & pro-family.
Having gone to China & having a Chinese wife has given me a wider perspective.
And previous related thoughts:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/08/family-values-atheism-paths-to.html
and also check the long list at:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/homosexuality
Again my experiences with my own gay nephew have influenced my views (and having a gay uncle who died of AIDS leaving his straight family with no father). But, on the other hand, there's this very nice man who helps keep our birds while we go on vacation. A service oriented guy who spends his life helping others. He's not a petty kook like my nephew. The guy is softening my view. So I'm perhaps somewhere in between the Black Atheists of Atlanta and the left at this point - on that issue. And the image you posted is pushing me further left still.
Children may really NEED both a mommy & a daddy. You ARE selling yourself short if you don't have kids. These two points may be true, regardless of how much hand wringing the left may do. But, on the other hand, the right is completely unhinged (as per what's in that fucking image you posted). So the right is completely wrong & lying about the issue also. The bottom line is that I'm not going to be tied to either side, not until more evidence is in. And if the evidence shows that children DO need a mommy & a daddy, then we should accept that evidence, period.
Part 1:
Part 3:
Is Homosexuality Destructive For The Black Family?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kka3ECinb6M
------------------
However I don't believe they'd agree with too many more points than point three on your photo.
Serial killers? That is destructive abusive bullshit, no question.
"Consider the source." This phrase is pushing me more & more toward the pro-gay camp. Now, I do still believe ALL sides need to be questioned. Unlike some I AM willing to at least listen to the few seculars who are either socially moderate or conservative.
As we know, it's not the number of people who believe in something, it's whether the ideas are actually valid or not.
A recent post of mine:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2014/03/listening-to-narth-guy-issues-more.html
What you'll find on my blog is the playing out of a tension between several forces. The ultra-pro-gay-everything-else-be-damned position within the secular community, and the built-in desire to be more, well, pro-reproduction & pro-family.
Having gone to China & having a Chinese wife has given me a wider perspective.
And previous related thoughts:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/08/family-values-atheism-paths-to.html
and also check the long list at:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/homosexuality
Again my experiences with my own gay nephew have influenced my views (and having a gay uncle who died of AIDS leaving his straight family with no father). But, on the other hand, there's this very nice man who helps keep our birds while we go on vacation. A service oriented guy who spends his life helping others. He's not a petty kook like my nephew. The guy is softening my view. So I'm perhaps somewhere in between the Black Atheists of Atlanta and the left at this point - on that issue. And the image you posted is pushing me further left still.
Children may really NEED both a mommy & a daddy. You ARE selling yourself short if you don't have kids. These two points may be true, regardless of how much hand wringing the left may do. But, on the other hand, the right is completely unhinged (as per what's in that fucking image you posted). So the right is completely wrong & lying about the issue also. The bottom line is that I'm not going to be tied to either side, not until more evidence is in. And if the evidence shows that children DO need a mommy & a daddy, then we should accept that evidence, period.
Friday, April 25, 2014
My time as an Alaska missionary | Censored at mission.net, a site for former Mormon missionaries, of course
The following is a response I posted elsewhere when I noticed a first poster was from Fairbanks, Alaska:
----------------
From '86 to '88 I lived in Alaska, including Anchorage, Eagle River, Sterling (Soldotna), and North Pole (Badger area - Fairbanks). I spent most of my time in Alaska doing the following:
1. Taking pictures of sunsets.
2. Walking door to door.
3. Mapping streets and highways onto 3x5 cards.
4. Trying to avoid being punched by crazy psychotic companions.
5. Trying to avoid getting shot by reclusive Alaskans.
6. Avoiding masturbation.
7. Confessing to my Mormon leaders about masturbation.
8. Baptizing a few lonely misfits.
9. Learning how to be a salesman when not going door to door (seriously - that's what they teach the nineteen year old pretentious pompous snotty nosed know-it-all kids who go on Mormon missions - professional sales techniques).
I have one sister in hippie town Homer. She first moved there working on the spit in a cannery. Now she has about 7 acres and a small house, and is a small ship captain.
Anyway, so yes there are a few former cult members here.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/
A bit more:
I don't believe in the new religion Atheism Plus, nor in anything similar (eg: the assumption that an atheist is automatically an ultra-leftist, and that to question that position means a person is not a true atheist).
I particularly appreciate the work of Hitchens, Steven Pinker, Daniel Dennett, Dawkins, Sagan, and some of Sam Harris's work. I suggest checking them all out if you've not done so thus far. Pinker & Hitchens have been particularly useful in the realm of questing both the left & right's presumptions. I think we need to question all sides, and not just assume that the "exact-extreme-opposite" of a given position is any better than the first one we used to embrace. Anyway...
------------------------
Addendum:
Boo fucking hoo. My profile got removed from the "mission alumni" database at
http://www.mission.net/alaska/anchorage
...a place where former missionaries get to tell how things are going in their lives, after I asked the site admins of mission.net to find out why the Alaska mission webmaster wasn't responding to my emails to get my previous profile text approved. Instead of responding themselves (the main site admins) they deleted my profile.
Ok, well, now I'm working to re-add a new profile, with even more honest text inside.
Hey, on the profile setup page is the following text:
Anything I want? I don't think so. You can only say "anything you want" if you're still a brainwashed true believing Mormon.
You see my friends, Mormons are NOT very nice. Not kind. Not caring.
They're fucking control freaks, period. That's the bottom line. Cult members, nothing more, dressed up in pretty suits & dresses. Fucking cult members.
This type of thing goes on in Mormonism all the time: Allow you, who you are, to exist among them ONLY if you tow the strict party line!
My previous profile which they removed me for just simply stated my life status. Married. Have a kid. Oh and my personal website linked over to this blog. Perhaps that was the tipping point for them. But the truth is the truth. "You can say anything you want?" Nope. In Mormonism you can't be who you are, deep down, as a normal human being.
Anyway I did submit another add request for my profile on that site. I rather suspect they'll either ignore or delete it again. Well, when you're in a scaredy-cat fearful cult like Mormonism, it's very important to protect yourself & all other Mormons from people & ideas which may free you from the cult.
Fuckers.
Latest profile re-add request screen shot:
[...probably not appearing there anytime soon. But the cult can't stop freedom on the the Internet!]
----------------
From '86 to '88 I lived in Alaska, including Anchorage, Eagle River, Sterling (Soldotna), and North Pole (Badger area - Fairbanks). I spent most of my time in Alaska doing the following:
1. Taking pictures of sunsets.
2. Walking door to door.
3. Mapping streets and highways onto 3x5 cards.
4. Trying to avoid being punched by crazy psychotic companions.
5. Trying to avoid getting shot by reclusive Alaskans.
6. Avoiding masturbation.
7. Confessing to my Mormon leaders about masturbation.
8. Baptizing a few lonely misfits.
9. Learning how to be a salesman when not going door to door (seriously - that's what they teach the nineteen year old pretentious pompous snotty nosed know-it-all kids who go on Mormon missions - professional sales techniques).
I have one sister in hippie town Homer. She first moved there working on the spit in a cannery. Now she has about 7 acres and a small house, and is a small ship captain.
Anyway, so yes there are a few former cult members here.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/
A bit more:
I don't believe in the new religion Atheism Plus, nor in anything similar (eg: the assumption that an atheist is automatically an ultra-leftist, and that to question that position means a person is not a true atheist).
I particularly appreciate the work of Hitchens, Steven Pinker, Daniel Dennett, Dawkins, Sagan, and some of Sam Harris's work. I suggest checking them all out if you've not done so thus far. Pinker & Hitchens have been particularly useful in the realm of questing both the left & right's presumptions. I think we need to question all sides, and not just assume that the "exact-extreme-opposite" of a given position is any better than the first one we used to embrace. Anyway...
------------------------
Addendum:
Boo fucking hoo. My profile got removed from the "mission alumni" database at
http://www.mission.net/alaska/anchorage
...a place where former missionaries get to tell how things are going in their lives, after I asked the site admins of mission.net to find out why the Alaska mission webmaster wasn't responding to my emails to get my previous profile text approved. Instead of responding themselves (the main site admins) they deleted my profile.
Ok, well, now I'm working to re-add a new profile, with even more honest text inside.
Hey, on the profile setup page is the following text:
"Here is where you can say anything you want about yourself. Tell us about kids, church callings, your testimony, a recent vacation or anything you feel like sharing." (emphasis added)
Anything I want? I don't think so. You can only say "anything you want" if you're still a brainwashed true believing Mormon.
You see my friends, Mormons are NOT very nice. Not kind. Not caring.
They're fucking control freaks, period. That's the bottom line. Cult members, nothing more, dressed up in pretty suits & dresses. Fucking cult members.
This type of thing goes on in Mormonism all the time: Allow you, who you are, to exist among them ONLY if you tow the strict party line!
My previous profile which they removed me for just simply stated my life status. Married. Have a kid. Oh and my personal website linked over to this blog. Perhaps that was the tipping point for them. But the truth is the truth. "You can say anything you want?" Nope. In Mormonism you can't be who you are, deep down, as a normal human being.
Anyway I did submit another add request for my profile on that site. I rather suspect they'll either ignore or delete it again. Well, when you're in a scaredy-cat fearful cult like Mormonism, it's very important to protect yourself & all other Mormons from people & ideas which may free you from the cult.
Fuckers.
Latest profile re-add request screen shot:
[...probably not appearing there anytime soon. But the cult can't stop freedom on the the Internet!]
Thursday, April 24, 2014
On Mormons who believe science shows the Book of Mormon is true.
Mormons who believe science shows the Book of Mormon is true. There's comparisons with creationist "science" to be sure.
13th International Book of Mormon Evidence Conference
http://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/event?oeidk=a07e8ygft4b73fe4785&llr=z7h5t5cab
The FIRM foundation:
http://firmlds.org
BoM DNA evidence:
http://www.bookofmormonevidence.org/downloads.php
An appropriate response, from a past associate of mine Simon Southerton:
http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/2011/12/origin-of-x-lineage.html
and
http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/2013/11/meldrums-x-lineage-ugly.html
It's not surprising really, to have Mormons frantically searching, searching, and searching for evidence. And then, they pull it right out of their collective asses.
The competition for the brain washed conference:
http://exmormonfoundation.org/conference-archive.html
and where Simon spoke:
http://exmormonfoundation.org/audio2006.html
Sadly the pro-science competition doesn't allow children at their conference though - STRANGE!
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/exmormon%20foundation
But they're better than nothing I suppose.
13th International Book of Mormon Evidence Conference
http://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/event?oeidk=a07e8ygft4b73fe4785&llr=z7h5t5cab
The FIRM foundation:
http://firmlds.org
BoM DNA evidence:
http://www.bookofmormonevidence.org/downloads.php
An appropriate response, from a past associate of mine Simon Southerton:
http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/2011/12/origin-of-x-lineage.html
and
http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/2013/11/meldrums-x-lineage-ugly.html
It's not surprising really, to have Mormons frantically searching, searching, and searching for evidence. And then, they pull it right out of their collective asses.
The competition for the brain washed conference:
http://exmormonfoundation.org/conference-archive.html
and where Simon spoke:
http://exmormonfoundation.org/audio2006.html
Sadly the pro-science competition doesn't allow children at their conference though - STRANGE!
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/exmormon%20foundation
But they're better than nothing I suppose.
Tuesday, April 22, 2014
Response to a brainwashed Mormon woman from Oregon
On Facebook I found a post by a current Mormon who lives in Oregon. Below I've drafted her questions & my responses. The text next to the Q for question items is her text. And my responses are next to the A for answers.
---
Howdy.
Your profile doesn't look like a one-off troll type account, and so I'm going to respond in more detail:
Q. Why is it so important for non LDS people to tear down the LDS religion?
A. Normally when people act in this regard it's for reasons they feel are good & valuable.
A. Are you sure? Atheists tend to know the most about religion.
A. What a person believes in makes a difference. Not all beliefs have equal value. Some beliefs hurt people & destroy lives.
Q. belief in something is better than belief in nothing.
A. We don't believe in "nothing." We just don't believe in Joseph Smith's alien Kolobite god.
A. Abusive controlling brain washing iron fisted destructive religions should be for no one, ideally.
Q. should remain a personal choice.
A. Children cannot choose. Most children are sucked into the religion of their parents. They don't have the ability to choose. Even adults can be sucked in though.
A. A non-believer is no longer in the religion.
Q. then you have no right to tear it down.
A. We have EVERY RIGHT (!!!) to speak our mind, and we shall continue to do so. It is a terrible offense and abuse to request that we do otherwise.
A. When a church leader acts as as an instrument of abuse (which they do by default), is that their choice?
A. Yes it does. What else would? History, or revisionist-history? Facts, or just faith-promoting-pseudo-facts? The real life experiences of people, or just those interpreted in a way to never criticize the Mormon Church or it's leaders?
Q. It just makes it wrong for you as an individual.
A. No, not everything is equal. Not everything is relative. Not all churches are of equal value. Not all churches help and/or hurt their followers in the same way.
Q. I am an active member and devout in my beliefs
A. Which is exactly why you're saying what you're saying. Meme set defense mechanisms. Amazing, but very sad. Mormon Brain Software. Yes, I had similar software running in my brain, and I'm quite familiar with how it works. The Church is always right, everything else be damned. Joseph the charismatic charlatan has shown you the way.
Q. It was the right choice for me and my children
A. You are actively abusing your children by allowing them to remain within Mormonism.
Q. and we are happy.
A. Happy in the gilded cage?
A. We know it isn't. 8 year olds at fast & testimony meeting, and their brain washed parents, know it is.
Q. No one really knows if there is an afterlife.
A. There isn't.
Q. My chosen religion has made me a better person
A. You don't sound like a better person so far.
Q. and has given me a standard in which to live my life.
A. Your standard for living should not come from old farts who want to get your money & keep you down. Humans have built-in morality, instilled by evolution by natural selection, and by the "neck-top" apps given by culture.
A. The peace that comes from ignorance. The peace that comes from ignoring the pain of others. The peace the comes from putting your head in the sand. The peace that comes from letting your children be grilled about masturbation, and putting your children's genitals into the hands of fucking old abusive farts. The peace that comes from forcibly excluding others. The peace that comes from being a cult follower.
Q. Just because you have chosen not to believe doesn't mean the religion is wrong,
A. Are your beliefs falsifiable? If not your brain might be in a box. You need to let it out. Science shows us the way: Criticism & skepticism in the first instance. And then later truth & fact finding after cogent theory development, testing, peer review, and so on. But being willing to trash the ideas of your fellows, in good faith, all in an attempt to find out where the actual truth lies. Are you doing that now? No. Yes your religion is wrong.
Q. or that Joseph Smith (my ancestor) was a bad man.
A. OMG. Were I still a Mormon, I would now be in awe of you.
A. No it ain't.
A. Less educated people in Mexico & South America are more easily sucked in.
Q. so there must be something to it.
A. Yes there is. Amway on steroids. A cult. A sink. A whirlpool.
A. I don't really know why you keep saying choice. Choice this. Choice that.
A. What's best for us is to do exactly what we're doing now.
A. It's bad for you even if you think it's good.
A. Bash away. They need some bashing. Child raping priests? Sounds like a good reason to bash. Have at it!
Q. I have seen no evidence worth my time
A. It was worth your time to write. Is it worth your time to read the responses? If it's not, don't bother complaining in the first place.
Q. I do believe in the church and our prophets, the apostles and the corum of the 70.
A. It's spelled quorum.
A. More examples of your abused-status.
Q. All that evidence you talk about is made up and false.
A. More evidence of your being in a cult.
Q. This is a life style for active members, not a hobby or just something we do on Sundays.
A. We know damn well what life is like in the Mormon Church.
Q. We cannot be swayed by false propaganda and 'evidence' written by angry inactives or non-members.
A. More evidence that you're not a nice, happy, or healthy person.
If you want to have a dialogue with people who've left, you can have one, you can have a conversation. But NO we won't shut up at your request. We WON'T stop speaking. We WON'T stop calling out problems with the church of our youth. We WON'T stop trying to free people from the abuse - and that includes trying to free YOU from it.
Sincerely,
Jonathan
April 22, 2014
p.s. Regarding the process of science & how it works:
"Trashing" & "tear down" might imply that everything's up for grabs when it isn't. Yes it's the goal of all reasonable honest scientists to try to "tear down" existing theories. To disprove them. To show where they're wrong. But more often than not one theory builds upon another. Einstein's theories didn't destroy Newton's. It simply built upon the previous theory, showed where Newton's claims remain valid (for most of human experience & speeds & viewpoints), and where they fall apart (eg: close to the speed of light or when next to very massive objects). Same goes for other new theories, usually. But when a bigger part of a theory is overturned, we view that with joy, not concern. Cha-ching - we've now learned MORE about the Universe. Super!
The truth finding method of science is far more powerful because of this. Far more accurate results than other methods.
In science you get ahead by disproving or finding flaws with previous theories - and that is it's power.
Related article by Steven Pinker:
---
Howdy.
Your profile doesn't look like a one-off troll type account, and so I'm going to respond in more detail:
Q. Why is it so important for non LDS people to tear down the LDS religion?
A. Normally when people act in this regard it's for reasons they feel are good & valuable.
There is a substantial difference between the Evangelical protestors outside of the Great & Spacious Building & Temple Square during Mo. Conference, and why we wish to "tear down the LDS religion."Q. I don't see anyone trying to do this with any other religion.
I also don't put much stock in people who're unhappy with Mormonism because the Mormon Jesus is different from the Baptist or Protestant or Catholic Jesuses. I could care less about such differences.
However there are many valuable, good, reasonable, valid, cogent, evidence-based, experience-based, fact-based reasons we can give as to why we express concerns, and why we use the tonalities we use as we express our concerns.
Do you REALLY want to know the answer, or are you just claiming there CAN BE NO answer which contradicts the validity of Mormonism? If your approach is the latter, then there's not much use in proceeding further. However if you really want to know the answer, here's where to find out more:
1. My own exit journal: http://corvus.freeshell.org/corvus_corax/two/life_path/life_path.htm#history
2. The exit journals of hundreds of others:
http://www.exmormon.org/stories.htm
3. Specific exit journals by others I find particularly valuable:
Simon Southerton - http://www.exmormon.org/whylft125.htm
audio form his speech during his 2006 appearance at an exmo conference:
http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/audio2006.html
Additional conference audio files: http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/conference-archive.html
A. Are you sure? Atheists tend to know the most about religion.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/28/nation/la-na-religion-survey-20100928Q. Belief is belief
http://bigthink.com/videos/reading-the-bible-or-the-koran-or-the-torah-will-make-you-an-atheist
Scientology criticism: http://www.xenu.net/
JW recovery: http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/jw-sites.html
Unitarian Univeralist recovery: http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-new-creed-of-unitarian-universalism.html
Catholic: http://bishop-accountability.org/
Islam: http://ex-muslim.org.uk
A. What a person believes in makes a difference. Not all beliefs have equal value. Some beliefs hurt people & destroy lives.
Q. belief in something is better than belief in nothing.
A. We don't believe in "nothing." We just don't believe in Joseph Smith's alien Kolobite god.
http://corvus.freeshell.org/psittacus/three/tract/kolob_tract.htmQ. Like all religions it is not for everyone
A. Abusive controlling brain washing iron fisted destructive religions should be for no one, ideally.
Q. should remain a personal choice.
A. Children cannot choose. Most children are sucked into the religion of their parents. They don't have the ability to choose. Even adults can be sucked in though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_JonesQ. If you make the choice to remain a non believer in the LDS religion
A. A non-believer is no longer in the religion.
Q. then you have no right to tear it down.
A. We have EVERY RIGHT (!!!) to speak our mind, and we shall continue to do so. It is a terrible offense and abuse to request that we do otherwise.
Your church did this (among MANY other abuses):Q. If you are an inactive member due to some wrong you think you suffered then that is also your choice.
http://web.archive.org/web/20131021180407/http://www.affirmation.org/suicide_info/sin_and_death_in_mormon_country.shtml
"On March 2, 1982, Kip Eliason, age 16, distraught and filled with self-hate over his inability to stop masturbating, committed suicide..."
Good job there, Mrs. Mormon. Good job, Spencer Kimball, Boyd Packer, and parents like you (presumably). You helped Kip stop playing with his "little factory" such that he felt it necessary to kill himself.
More appropriate responses:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/boyd%20packer
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/search/label/Spencer%20Kimball
Yes, they couldn't keep their Jesus off my penis. But, there's many other abuses that happen.
Abuses of power. Telling members they cannot question the leaders, and if they do they'll be kicked out. Being kicked out may also be turned out onto the street from your family. Complete exclusion from your own family. And even for more "nice" Mormons it will still mean exclusion from temple marriage ceremonies & other things.
PART-Member family. PART, part, part, part, member family. Which "part" is the good part and which part is the evil part? Which part is the good wing, and which part is the damaged wing that one would be better off cutting off? Member. Non-member. Apostate. Enemy of the Church. And so on.
These are ALL expressions of OUT GROUP morality. Not nice. Not good. Yes fully natural. But best worth discouraging where possible.
Thank goodness for the Internet for increasing all the scope of all of our in-group morality. The 'net is hurting Mormonism & other expressions of destructive out-group morality - and that's a good thing.
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/12/genocide-in-bible-ingroup-outgroup.html
http://edge.org/conversation/mc2011-history-violence-pinker
A. When a church leader acts as as an instrument of abuse (which they do by default), is that their choice?
When Joseph Smith slept with a 14 year old & with the wives of other men, was it his choice? Or is it only an even-choice when someone decides they don't like the abuse? A choice that can be easily discounted?Q. It doesn't make the religion wrong
Yes, people use their brains to make decisions. To get away from the abusers, the cult, the brain washing, the control, and to be more free. And that's a good thing.
A. Yes it does. What else would? History, or revisionist-history? Facts, or just faith-promoting-pseudo-facts? The real life experiences of people, or just those interpreted in a way to never criticize the Mormon Church or it's leaders?
Q. It just makes it wrong for you as an individual.
A. No, not everything is equal. Not everything is relative. Not all churches are of equal value. Not all churches help and/or hurt their followers in the same way.
Q. I am an active member and devout in my beliefs
A. Which is exactly why you're saying what you're saying. Meme set defense mechanisms. Amazing, but very sad. Mormon Brain Software. Yes, I had similar software running in my brain, and I'm quite familiar with how it works. The Church is always right, everything else be damned. Joseph the charismatic charlatan has shown you the way.
Q. It was the right choice for me and my children
A. You are actively abusing your children by allowing them to remain within Mormonism.
Q. and we are happy.
A. Happy in the gilded cage?
Happy in the black & white world of Pleasantville, or the color version? Happy in the dream world of all-encompassing all-encircling Mormonism, or in the real world of reality? Is ignorance bliss? It can be for a time. But in the long term being forcibly ignorant keeps a person's brain & soul in a type of prison.Q. No one really knows if religion is true.
http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/Redpill
A. We know it isn't. 8 year olds at fast & testimony meeting, and their brain washed parents, know it is.
Q. No one really knows if there is an afterlife.
A. There isn't.
Q. My chosen religion has made me a better person
A. You don't sound like a better person so far.
Q. and has given me a standard in which to live my life.
A. Your standard for living should not come from old farts who want to get your money & keep you down. Humans have built-in morality, instilled by evolution by natural selection, and by the "neck-top" apps given by culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_chalks_it_up_to_the_blank_slate
your neck-top: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q_mY54hjM0Q. I have peace in it.
and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXvldBqYjGM
A. The peace that comes from ignorance. The peace that comes from ignoring the pain of others. The peace the comes from putting your head in the sand. The peace that comes from letting your children be grilled about masturbation, and putting your children's genitals into the hands of fucking old abusive farts. The peace that comes from forcibly excluding others. The peace that comes from being a cult follower.
Q. Just because you have chosen not to believe doesn't mean the religion is wrong,
A. Are your beliefs falsifiable? If not your brain might be in a box. You need to let it out. Science shows us the way: Criticism & skepticism in the first instance. And then later truth & fact finding after cogent theory development, testing, peer review, and so on. But being willing to trash the ideas of your fellows, in good faith, all in an attempt to find out where the actual truth lies. Are you doing that now? No. Yes your religion is wrong.
Q. or that Joseph Smith (my ancestor) was a bad man.
A. OMG. Were I still a Mormon, I would now be in awe of you.
The progeny of JS has spoken, and is here before us. If you were a man you might be a G.A. today. But because you don't have a penis you're pretty much excluded from any real leadership roles. Damn. If you have some male children maybe they've got a chance.Q. It is the fastest growing religion in the world
Does a bad man sleep with a 14 year old and with the wives of other men?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/
A. No it ain't.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/?hpt=hp_c1Q. in the Hispanic population
"...The fastest growing 'religious' group in America is made up of people with no religion at all..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion#Overall_statistics
Damn. Looks like atheism or Islam, depending on which column you choose.
A. Less educated people in Mexico & South America are more easily sucked in.
Q. so there must be something to it.
A. Yes there is. Amway on steroids. A cult. A sink. A whirlpool.
Religion is a natural phenomenon:Q. See it for what it is.......A CHOICE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_the_Spell:_Religion_as_a_Natural_Phenomenon
A. I don't really know why you keep saying choice. Choice this. Choice that.
You don't seem to understand the subtleties or realities of how the human brain works. A brain can be sucked in and held down. When a brain is in Mormonism it engages in meme-set defense & maintenance activities. There's a lot less choice in this process.Q. The ones who feel damaged and destroyed can go their own way and figure out what is best for them.
While I do believe & maintain we have free will, I can see where Sam Harris is coming from:
Sam Harris's view on free will:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FanhvXO9Pk
Daniel Dennett's response:
http://www.naturalism.org/Dennett_reflections_on_Harris%27s_Free_Will.pdf
or http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/reflections-on-free-will
Harris's response to Dennett's review:
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-marionettes-lament
In any case we have more free will that a petunia or a carrot. Our neural networks are incredibly complex computers which has far more decision-making power than other animals. But we are animals, and built-in traits & proclivities have far more of an influence than many would like to admit.
Humans can be sucked into cults. They are sucked into cults. Children are sucked into the religions of their parents. If a child's parents believe in an abusive religion, then they will probably grow up and become an abuser themselves - unless they come to their senses as they become more psychologically adult, or if they're exposed to enough evidence (personal or otherwise) which finally dislodges them from the abusive-religion meme set.
A. What's best for us is to do exactly what we're doing now.
Trying to help educate people like you about the problems with the cult you're in. Your brain & body have been hijacked, as have the brains & bodies of your children.Q. That doesn't mean it isn't good for those of us the religion is working for.
Here's a quote from a post I made back in 2012,
at http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/adorations_index.html/viewthread/35772/#561941
Recently I discovered that Miracle of Forgiveness is available at the mobot distribution centers, in several different languages. In each language section they have the BOM, maybe a bible, but always this POS book.----------end of quote
http://www.lds.org/braille/The Miracle of Forgiveness.txt
Very appropriate responses to this book can be found in the form of one star reviews at Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Miracle-of-Forgiveness-ebook/product-reviews/B002JQK1VG/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0
Since the Mormon Church apparently considers this book to still be highly relevant, then every despicable thing Spencer Kimball & Boyd Packer have done relative to negative portrayals of human sexuality to the youth & adults in the church is relevant also.
On oral sex, Spencer wants to get into your bedroom:
http://lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter.shtml
http://lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter1.shtml
On masturbation, Spencer & Boyd both want to have a look:
http://www.zionsbest.com/only.html
http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/masturbation.htm
Also Spencer really is concerned about "petting" and "heavy petting." Oh my, that f-ing old fart must really have been hyperventilating when he wrote his Miracle of Forgiveness book. Necking. Petting. Heavy Petting. Tell us more Spencer, about all the things you dream about at night but also hate yourself for thinking of.
But people say he was such a nice man. My father has said this, as did my mother who worked as a nurse in the COB. But the guy was really not so nice after all, after you read all hateful the trash he put out.
Here's a related blog post:
Subverting normal human sexuality: Mormon Church's principal crime
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/12/subverting-normal-human-sexuality.html
Anyway, with my new wife seeing the pretty white shirts and the pretty buildings, and with my more recent research into the issue of Kimball's trash book being widely promoted in different languages by the mobot church, I decided to put on youtube a reprise of a song I created some time ago:
We were all just sperm in god's balls, a parody of the song Seeds:
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/12/we-were-all-just-sperm-in-gods-balls.html
And, with Joseph Smith's nutty view of heaven in the form of Kolob, and "Kobol" entering the common consciousness in the form of the much less campy newer Battlestar Galatica version, the following newer song came out of a recent morning shower singing session:
Launch a Mission to Kolob...
http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2012/12/launch-mission-to-kolob-and-blow-place.html
Joseph gets to have a 14 year old wife & wives who are still married to other men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wives
Brigham gets a 15 year old & wives still married to other men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young's_wives
But, Spencer & Boyd really were/are obsessed with that you and your children are up to at home, at night, in the privacy of your bedrooms. What's up with that? And since Spencer's piece of trash book is *very* relevant for the Mormon Church, as per their having it readily available in many different languages at their distribution centers, (and reportedly since it's required reading for new missionaries) it's clear that they are still very interested in transmitting this human spirit destroying set of memes onto everyone they can.
What is up with the Mormon Church & sex? Their horn dog founder created a religion whose god, apparently, has to have an orgasm every 4.6 minutes to create 107 billion people in one million years.
107 billion people may have lived on Earth so far:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097038/Are-really-people-alive-today-lived-Earth.html
...and that number doesn't account for "worlds without end."
Perhaps the Mormon God is rather like a giant space termite:
http://www.termite.com/images/queenking.jpg
...that would be more fitting.
Is your god an alien?
http://corvus.freeshell.org/psittacus/three/tract/kolob_tract.htm
...and yet, now they want to very much control even the mere thought of sex in their members. Why? Because once a person actually allows themselves to be open to the possibility of sex being fun, normal, natural, empowering, and liberating, they can more easily find they have no use for the Mormon God or for the supposedly good feelings you get during Mormon Church meetings or from reading the lies of Joseph in the form of the Mormon scriptures.
The Mormon Church tries to hijack people's basic emotions, and to subvert & control & misinterpret them for their own nefarious ends. Other conservative religions do this also.
In any case I get much better feelings of validation from the love of my wife & new son than I ever got in mostly boring Mormon Church meetings, and from the occasional good feelings they claimed "proved" their church was correct. There's a price to be paid for pretty white shirts and pretty buildings.
If feelings can be used as a form of validation, then that means the much better feelings I've had since leaving mean their lies were incorrect.
A. It's bad for you even if you think it's good.
Life in Oregon is rather substantially different than life in Provo (unless you live too close to the Portland Temple).Q. I was a Catholic before I converted to LDS and I wasn't happy but I refuse to bash that religion.
A. Bash away. They need some bashing. Child raping priests? Sounds like a good reason to bash. Have at it!
Q. I have seen no evidence worth my time
A. It was worth your time to write. Is it worth your time to read the responses? If it's not, don't bother complaining in the first place.
Q. I do believe in the church and our prophets, the apostles and the corum of the 70.
A. It's spelled quorum.
Your post is a prime example of why you're not really a happy nor healthy person while being Mormon. Blind ignorance to the life experiences of others. Forcible ignorance to evidence, truth, fact, real history, and so on. You have been abused. You are being abused. And if your children are in the church, they are being abused, for many reasons.Q. I believe in its teachings and how the church was restored by Joseph Smith.
A. More examples of your abused-status.
Q. All that evidence you talk about is made up and false.
A. More evidence of your being in a cult.
Q. This is a life style for active members, not a hobby or just something we do on Sundays.
A. We know damn well what life is like in the Mormon Church.
Q. We cannot be swayed by false propaganda and 'evidence' written by angry inactives or non-members.
A. More evidence that you're not a nice, happy, or healthy person.
If you want to have a dialogue with people who've left, you can have one, you can have a conversation. But NO we won't shut up at your request. We WON'T stop speaking. We WON'T stop calling out problems with the church of our youth. We WON'T stop trying to free people from the abuse - and that includes trying to free YOU from it.
Sincerely,
Jonathan
April 22, 2014
p.s. Regarding the process of science & how it works:
"Trashing" & "tear down" might imply that everything's up for grabs when it isn't. Yes it's the goal of all reasonable honest scientists to try to "tear down" existing theories. To disprove them. To show where they're wrong. But more often than not one theory builds upon another. Einstein's theories didn't destroy Newton's. It simply built upon the previous theory, showed where Newton's claims remain valid (for most of human experience & speeds & viewpoints), and where they fall apart (eg: close to the speed of light or when next to very massive objects). Same goes for other new theories, usually. But when a bigger part of a theory is overturned, we view that with joy, not concern. Cha-ching - we've now learned MORE about the Universe. Super!
The truth finding method of science is far more powerful because of this. Far more accurate results than other methods.
In science you get ahead by disproving or finding flaws with previous theories - and that is it's power.
Related article by Steven Pinker:
Sunday, April 20, 2014
Happy Erection Day! Easter.
Today is a celebration of Jesus's **Erection***, Not Resurrection!
Today is a celebration of the first time in his existence when he had a boner. Nothing more.
Thanks Terence Koh for showing us the true Jesus, on his Erection Day:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/sep/03/religion.art
related:
http://aronnamenwirth.blogspot.com/2011/04/christ-on-cross-with-erection.html
Other religions on the subject:
http://www.cracked.com/article_16103_5-inspiring-religions-that-worship-penises.html
in Japan:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/07/japan-penis-festival-kanamara-matsuri_n_5106378.html
and
http://goo.gl/fbyVeY
OMG, I think Spencer Kimball & Mark E. Petersen's heads must have just exploded, after seeing what those Japanese people do to celibate spring & hopeful fertility.
Much more interesting than Jesus getting a boner. Jesus is a fucking bore. Lame. Pretentious. Pious. Angry under a thin mask of false pretense of being nice. Nice on the surface, but an asshole when you get to know him. An excellent model & mirror for most Mormons. Thanks Jesus, for BYU, the Church Office Building, and all your little nazi followers.
So, let's forget that and instead consider proper fertility festivals of other religions.
Remember the 1973 version of Wicker Man?
http://vimeo.com/65040858
Oh my, now they had some good fertility dances on that island... And they toasted the guy who wanted to impose his pious iron fisted prudishness onto everyone. Sounds good to me.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/apr/03/easter-pagan-symbolism
Today is a celebration of the first time in his existence when he had a boner. Nothing more.
Thanks Terence Koh for showing us the true Jesus, on his Erection Day:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/sep/03/religion.art
related:
http://aronnamenwirth.blogspot.com/2011/04/christ-on-cross-with-erection.html
Other religions on the subject:
http://www.cracked.com/article_16103_5-inspiring-religions-that-worship-penises.html
in Japan:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/07/japan-penis-festival-kanamara-matsuri_n_5106378.html
and
http://goo.gl/fbyVeY
OMG, I think Spencer Kimball & Mark E. Petersen's heads must have just exploded, after seeing what those Japanese people do to celibate spring & hopeful fertility.
Much more interesting than Jesus getting a boner. Jesus is a fucking bore. Lame. Pretentious. Pious. Angry under a thin mask of false pretense of being nice. Nice on the surface, but an asshole when you get to know him. An excellent model & mirror for most Mormons. Thanks Jesus, for BYU, the Church Office Building, and all your little nazi followers.
So, let's forget that and instead consider proper fertility festivals of other religions.
Remember the 1973 version of Wicker Man?
http://vimeo.com/65040858
Oh my, now they had some good fertility dances on that island... And they toasted the guy who wanted to impose his pious iron fisted prudishness onto everyone. Sounds good to me.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/apr/03/easter-pagan-symbolism
report on visit to American Atheists convention in Salt Lake City, April 2014
Report of visit to the Hilton on Friday 4-18-2014: Having not paid the requisite $300, we didn't have badges on. We walked around the cocktail hour socializers on the 2nd floor for about 5 minutes. Didn't see anyone we knew, except one person who didn't recognize us.
Didn't see any youtube celebrities.
Didn't see the bible beating protestors outside - they must have arrived later.
We also walked quickly through Comic Con down the street. No one checked for a pass, perhaps because I had my son in arm. We breezed through quickly and only spent about 1 minute inside a hall just seeing the overall layout. Overall it looked like a fun affair.
We thought the atheists would have even more fun it they visited the Salt Palace & Comic Con.
I imagine that attending national atheist conventions is an interesting experience. You get to see a few youtube celebs who you'd never otherwise see. You'll never see them again, and they'll never see you again. You'll also probably never see again 99% of the other people.
Not many kids present, if any, but we were only there for 5 minutes though that's also true.
In any case secular groups need to become more welcoming to having kids present at their meetings, if they expect more religious people to join up. I for one resent the Unitarian Universalist model of sending your kids away to some basement room while the adults stay behind, and that model should not be mirrored by secular / humanist / atheist groups, especially not in Utah.
http://www.atheists.org/convention2014/
"American Atheists fights to protect the absolute separation of religion from government and raise the profile of atheism in the public discourse."
"...unless you post a link to your own blog on our FB page - then you've gone too far. You're engaging in 'self promotion' by posting a link to your own blog, and we here at American Atheists cannot tolerate having speech present from others - speech which detracts from US!" ...reasonable paraphrasing & interpretation of their response.
Whatever. Just goes to know Groucho Marx said it best: I don't wish to belong to any group that would have me as a member.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Groucho_Marx
p.s. The policy at
http://www.atheists.org/convention2014/code-of-conduct
where they state "...This convention welcomes families with children and expects all participants to treat these families with courtesy and respect..."
Damn. That's a better statement than what the Exmormon Foundation stated on their website for their convention this year:
"...Due to the nature of the conference presentations and the serving of alcohol during the evenings, we have established a strict policy that no children are allowed except for nursing infants. In addition, since the presentations are recorded for our website, it's important that we control the ambient noise during the recordings. If you have any questions about this policy, please contact the Conference Chairman..."
http://web.archive.org/web/20130730052521/http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/conference2013.html
Hmmm. At least American Atheists states that their convention is supposed to be family friendly. That's a lot better stance than what the Exmormon Foundation does!
Why would a foundation meant to support former Mormons actively exclude those with children from attending? Strange, especially since in Mormon meetings they don't send their children away to some back room - during the main meeting, unlike some religions.
But, American Atheists is still too controlling on their own FB page. So no one's perfect.
Didn't see any youtube celebrities.
Didn't see the bible beating protestors outside - they must have arrived later.
We also walked quickly through Comic Con down the street. No one checked for a pass, perhaps because I had my son in arm. We breezed through quickly and only spent about 1 minute inside a hall just seeing the overall layout. Overall it looked like a fun affair.
We thought the atheists would have even more fun it they visited the Salt Palace & Comic Con.
I imagine that attending national atheist conventions is an interesting experience. You get to see a few youtube celebs who you'd never otherwise see. You'll never see them again, and they'll never see you again. You'll also probably never see again 99% of the other people.
Not many kids present, if any, but we were only there for 5 minutes though that's also true.
In any case secular groups need to become more welcoming to having kids present at their meetings, if they expect more religious people to join up. I for one resent the Unitarian Universalist model of sending your kids away to some basement room while the adults stay behind, and that model should not be mirrored by secular / humanist / atheist groups, especially not in Utah.
http://www.atheists.org/convention2014/
"American Atheists fights to protect the absolute separation of religion from government and raise the profile of atheism in the public discourse."
"...unless you post a link to your own blog on our FB page - then you've gone too far. You're engaging in 'self promotion' by posting a link to your own blog, and we here at American Atheists cannot tolerate having speech present from others - speech which detracts from US!" ...reasonable paraphrasing & interpretation of their response.
Whatever. Just goes to know Groucho Marx said it best: I don't wish to belong to any group that would have me as a member.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Groucho_Marx
p.s. The policy at
http://www.atheists.org/convention2014/code-of-conduct
where they state "...This convention welcomes families with children and expects all participants to treat these families with courtesy and respect..."
Damn. That's a better statement than what the Exmormon Foundation stated on their website for their convention this year:
"...Due to the nature of the conference presentations and the serving of alcohol during the evenings, we have established a strict policy that no children are allowed except for nursing infants. In addition, since the presentations are recorded for our website, it's important that we control the ambient noise during the recordings. If you have any questions about this policy, please contact the Conference Chairman..."
http://web.archive.org/web/20130730052521/http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/conference2013.html
Hmmm. At least American Atheists states that their convention is supposed to be family friendly. That's a lot better stance than what the Exmormon Foundation does!
Why would a foundation meant to support former Mormons actively exclude those with children from attending? Strange, especially since in Mormon meetings they don't send their children away to some back room - during the main meeting, unlike some religions.
But, American Atheists is still too controlling on their own FB page. So no one's perfect.
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