The Salt Lake Valley Atheists group held their monthly Utah Atheist Bunch, on Sunday February 3rd, 2013. Here's a clip from that meeting,
and then subsequent commentary added on from the 5th and 6th:
The talk at the meeting regarded whether atheism is a religion. At the front of his talk the speaker stated that "evangelical atheism" is just as bad as other forms of evangelical religion, and he said that atheists should not be "moral busybodies."
After his talk the speaker took a more conciliatory tone to some extent and said that he was mainly concerned about tactics. Also during his talk he said that it may be appropriate to respond to other religionists if they were procreatory.
Is atheism a religion? Not in the traditional sense. In religions usually there's leaders who cannot be questioned. Atheists tend to value science & try to reject dogma. Scientists get ahead in science by actually disproving, overturning, or adding to previous theories. Usually religious organizations reject and resist change and challenges to their core leaders & doctrines.
There is a lot of provocation going on from regligionists. Mormons send out their missionaries, they interrogate children and adults about masturbation,necking,petting,sex outside of marriage, and even oralsex in marriage. Catholic priests rape children en masse, and Catholics & conservative Anglicans have thrown their pretty women and women who had sex outside of marriage into asylums. Islamic people require that their women live in the prison of the burqa, niqab, and hijab.
Ok, so this is turning out to be a long standing issue. Examine the history of science & religion. In the past scientists got locked up for doing science, because their work challenged the contemporary views of the world. And even today, atheists are being sent to prison for speaking their mind.
Galileo was found to be "...vehemently suspect of heresy," and later sentenced to prison. A relevant excerpt from his sentence - but read the whole thing when you get a chance:
We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you,
the above-mentioned Galileo, because of the things deduced in the trial
and confessed by you as above, have rendered yourself according to this
Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely of having held and
believed a doctine which is false and contrary to the divine and Holy
Scripture: that the sun is the center of the world and does not move from
east to west, and the earth moves and is not the center of the world,
and that one may hold and defend as probable an opinion after it has been
declared and defined contrary to Holy Scripture. Consequently you
have incurred all the censures and penalties imposed and promulgated by
the sacred canons and all particular and general laws against such delinquents.
We are willing to absolve you from them provided that first, with a sincere
heart and unfeigned faith, in front of us you abjure, curse, and detest
the above-mentioned errors and heresies, and every other error and heresy
contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, in the manner and form
we will prescribe to you.
Furthermore, so that this serious and pernicious error
and transgression of yours does not remain completely unpunished, and
so that you will be more cautious in the future and an example for others
to abstain from similar crimes, we order that the book Dialogue
by Galileo Galilei be prohibited by public edict.
We condemn you to formal imprisonment in this Holy
Office at our pleasure. As a salutary penance we impose on you to
recite the seven penitential Psalms once a week for the next three years.
And we reserve the authority to moderate, change, or condone wholly or
in part the above-mentioned penalties and penances.
And then later we have the Scopes Trial, where teaching evolution was illegal in Tennessee.
No conflict between science & religion? That's what the Templeton Foundation would have us believe.
It almost goes without saying that creation "science" (which is not a science) is a direct response from religionists who see science as a threat.
The approach of the creationist religionists is as follows:
We don't like the answers science gives, they disprove our literalist interpretation of scripture. Therefore we shall simply redefine what science is and what science means, and we'll blow as much smoke as possible and muddy the waters with half and partial truths regarding what the true state of scientific discovery is.
This is precisely the approach taken by the "creation scientists:" blow smoke, change definitions, and lie when you have to.
And, the exact same approach is taken by the Mormon Church in the following articles, as they pathetically attempt to respond to DNA evidence refuting key claims in their founding religious documents on the origins of the American Indians. Check out:
A talk by Dr. Southerton to at an Exmormon Foundation conference: http://exmormonfoundation.org/audio2006.html
...look under the text on that page that says
"Simon Southerton, Ph.D.: 'Losing a Lost Race: From Radishes to DNA and Outer Darkness'"
Mormon scriptures that directly tie American Indians with Israel:
2 Nephi 26:19
19 And it shall come to pass, that those who have dwindled in unbelief shall be smitten by the hand of the Gentiles.
Enos 1:16
And I had faith, and I did cry unto God that he would preserve the records; and he covenanted with me that he would bring them forth unto the Lamanites in his own due time.
D&C 3:18
18 And this testimony shall come to the knowledge of the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, who dwindled in unbelief because of the iniquity of their fathers, whom the Lord has suffered to destroy their brethren the Nephites, because of their iniquities and their abominations.
D&C 3:19
19 And for this very purpose are these plates preserved, which contain these records---that the promises of the Lord might be fulfilled, which he made to his people;
D&C 3:20
20 And that the Lamanites might come to the knowledge of their fathers, and that they might know the promises of the Lord, and that they may believe the gospel and rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ, and be glorified through faith in his name, and that through their repentance they might be saved. Amen.
D&C 19:27
27 Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.
D&C 28:8
8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.
D&C 32:2
2 And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.
D&C 54:8
8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.
D&C Section 57 Introduction - 1986 Edition
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, in Zion, Jackson County, Missouri, July 20, 1831. HC 1: 189-190. In compliance with the Lord's command (Section 52), the elders had journeyed from Kirtland to Missouri with many varied experiences and some opposition. In contemplating the state of the Lamanites and the lack of civilization, refinement, and religion among the people generally, the Prophet exclaimed in yearning prayer: "When will the wilderness blossom as the rose? When will Zion be built up in her glory, and where will they Temple stand, unto which all nations shall come in the last days?" Subsequently he received this revelation.
D&C 57:4
4 Wherefore, it is wisdom that the land should be purchased by the saints, and also every tract lying westward, even into the line running directly between Jew and Gentile.
[Footnote on the bottom of page 103 of the 1986 D&C:]
4b IE by metonymy "Jew" here refers to the Lamanites, and "Gentile" to the white settlers.
But notice, in the Doctrine & Covenants sections referenced above, we have The Mormon God, Elohim, speaking directly to Joseph Smith, right? Hey, Mormon Church, and FARMS, can you get around that?
The Mormon Brain Software, which was running in my own brain for several years, was a set of memes that operated rather like a virus or a biological system that put up defenses.
...and they do in all religions. If you have a doubt, that's from Satan. So, this is the last resort of all religionists. A newer tactic is to try to redefine what science means and what science is. That's the tactic of creation "scientists" and Templeton Chumps alike. And another longer standing tactic is to blow smoke. And then, if all else fails, just threaten people with the fear that any doubt comes to them via an evil spirit. How perverse, but it's par for the course in cult-type religions.
At the North American Museum of Ancient Life, in Lehi (near Provo), Utah (also should be known in my view as the 'Provo Dinosaur Museum'), they have a lot of nice exhibits. But
one key thing missing is any mention of human evolution, or that there were other 'homo' species, such as neanderthals. What's up with that? So
yes the place is nice & pretty, but they aren't telling the full
story with the glaring omission of human evolution. Zero mention in the
place - from what we saw. Nice & pretty to be sure, but not the full story of "ancient life." Video from our February 2nd, 2013 visit:
A talk by Dr. Southerton to at an Exmormon Foundation conference: http://exmormonfoundation.org/audio2006.html
...look under the text on that page that says
"Simon Southerton, Ph.D.: 'Losing a Lost Race: From Radishes to DNA and Outer Darkness'"
Maybe we can all try to mutilate our daughters on World Mutilation Day or marry off our girls on World Child Marriages Day? How about a day when our male guardians can track our whereabouts to make sure we aren’t leaving the country.
I know adult women have a right to wear the hijab (given the threats and compulsory nature of it in most places – this is very often just a formality but nonetheless) but to ask others to wear it is a tad absurd – if I’m being polite.
I am sorry but I don’t think I am the cause of fitna/chaos in the world and therefore find the veil abhorrent.
So here is my tribute to the hijab..."
Click here for the original article. The above image comes from there.
"...Islam and muslims have a hugh PR problem in the West. We need to help non muslims understand our religion and Islamic culture. Seriously, you need to think of it as a form of dawah..."
Indeed, and World Hijab Day isn't helping our view of your religion.
Here's info on local atheist groups in & near Salt Lake:
Salt Lake Valley Atheists. Meets the 1st Sunday at Sizzler on 4th South
at 11:30AM. Kirk Robinson is the speaker this month. Eat if you wish,
but it's not required. Come to the back room. For more info: http://nowscape.com/a
Atheists of Utah is a 501C3 type group and so is "officially"
politically neutral, but attendees can have whatever views they wish
& debate & discuss freely. The coffee chats tend to be a
churning type of experience, and they can be fun if you decide to simply
talk to your neighbor. Location Mestizo's Coffeehouse, 7-9:30PM. More
info on the website.
The above groups, and this group, are members of UCOR, the Utah Coalition of Reason. http://reasonutah.org/
The yearly Exmormon Foundation conferences in Salt Lake have never had a
"Christian" agenda per se - mostly a secular one of learning to live
life after being in the circle of the cult. http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/
There are two Unitarian Universalist congratulations in the Salt Lake
valley and some former mos attend. My own personal satisfaction level
with each congregation has varied & wavered over time. From a
cultural perspective the meetings & layout are more similar to
Catholic & Anglican services rather than Mormon. The kids are, for
example, sent away to rooms instead of being allowed to stay with their
parents. Also they tend to have a paid preacher - who does admittedly
tend to be very socially liberal, but still it's usually the same person
speaking every week. The UU's in general have some taboos about being
truly honest about he problems with religion though, and so sadly they
have their heads in the sand as much as other religions to some extent.
But nevertheless they are a socializing option you could consider if you
wish. My further concerns about UUism: http://tinyurl.com/beqls4b
My view on such things is that people are unfortunately jumping from
one cult to another. That's my view, and I won't belong to any group
that would seek to censor my trying to speak my mind. I try not to be a
cultural relativist, so I could say "if that what floats your boat, so
be it" but I won't because doing so makes me feel bad.
Here again is a more full list of groups that ARE stronger advocates for secularism and the fruits of the Enlightenment: http://reasonutah.org/groups/
Try them all - as on that site. And don't forget that in some there is a
weekly or monthly churning. So if irritating people show up one week,
maybe next time you'll find more interesting people - or you could be
the interesting person yourself.
My video on Islam & Unitarianism has had
two views (so far) from Saudi (as per the stats page for the video). They're
checking me out...
Here's a video of an atheist visiting Mecca:
The previous occurrences of the account were deleted via trolls. For example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGmOpVrYJ5Q has been terminated. So watch the newest incarnation of the atheist in Mecca video while you can.
And here again is a film where an apparent atheist visits a Mormon temple, to view the ceremony where they show a film:
and here's the version of the Mormon temple ceremony that has live actors:
Hi again, guys and (hopefully) gals from Saudi Arabia. Thanks for checking out my videos. I'm glad you were able to stop by...
January 19, 2013 video commentary on atheists, exmormons, and people who've left other religions "moving on."
Are you uncomfortable being around atheists, ex-mormons, ex-Muslims, or people who've left other cults - people with a lot of "religious baggage?"
Here's a video commentary for you, and also about whether people are free to speak their mind while inside various religions or not. Also avoiding cults of personality, even in atheist groups.
Even some some atheists wonder about the anger of exmormons & fellow atheists.
Why? Why? Why are we so angry?
Because we have damn good reasons to be. Check out the links above. Read what people actually say.
All that baggage. Why don't we just "get over it?" We do live our lives and we move forward. But we never completely "move on." Why? Because the petrified penis of Mormonism still stands tall over Salt Lake. Because the "Miracle of Forgiveness" is still sold in the Mormon Church distribution centers. Because asshole Boyd Packer is still spewing human spirit destroying filth. Because the Mormon Church continues to oppress people. Because we're upset at being lied to. Because some of our families disowned us. Because some of our fellows committed suicide because of the pain.
Some people who had a fluffy exit from Mormonism, or who were only ever liberal religionists or who have always been non-religious, these people often have no idea what life was like in Mormonism or other conservative cults.
Why don't we just "get over it?" Ask us in a more respectful tone & maybe we'll tell you.
I will not disparage people for seeking social support after they leave a cult. You shouldn't either.
Why is it such a mystery to some why these people have "so much religious baggage?" Because they do. And maybe they need some help learning how to be more free from the cult they spent many years inside.
Atheist groups serve as a social support for people who leave various religions. People with a "lot of religious baggage" may well show up to such meetings, and if that offends you, too bad. It's par for the course at such meetings. Maybe those people need your help.
Related site & a good quote: http://new.exchristian.net/2011/02/why-are-atheists-so-angry.html
"...Atheists are fully justified in their anger, and that anger may be the last, best hope for our species surviving our own ignorance and gullibility. If religious forces ever manage to quell our anger, then they will have won the battle . . . and lost the world..."
I think his views are influenced in part by the death threats he has received due to his past writings & work. Nevertheless I agree that more can be done to keep guns out of the hands of nuts, and perhaps out of the homes of people who have nuts living there.
Death threats do tend to sharpen the mind I'm sure. All these people tend to be hawks when it comes to Islam, and for good reason - because they have first hand experience with what happens when we encounter a medieval cult still with wide reaching power over people.
Pat Condell - I very much appreciate his tone & his positions on religion. I may not agree with all of his politics, but I nevertheless love the way he states his positions: http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell
-----
video commentary is from January 9 & 10, 2013 videos combined into one
As an atheist I whole heatedly disagree with Peter Singer’s positions on abortion, infanticide, and human rights.
Notes from video commentary, with additional thoughts:
Religion is a natural phenomenon. So the good that comes from religion is natural. There are atheists who are concerned about abortion, and who absolutely do not agree with Singer.
Without god everything is permitted? No. There is no god, and not everything is permitted. So the answer is no to that proposition.
In Averick's article on Singer he doesn't need to paint all atheists as immoral. We aren’t - we’re human just like him, and humans have human morals.
And as for Singer, I recommend you read this post and an earlier post, which includes notes on Sam Harris & Christopher Hitchens, on the problems with moral & cultural relativism, and an advocacy for discouraging abortion.
Can a middle road be taken on abortion? How about: First & second trimester: legal but highly discouraged. Third trimester: illegal. After birth abortion: equivalent to murder. How's that?
Morality comes from a combination of socialization and genetics. Check out Steven Pinker, Sam Harris, & Daniel Dennet on the subject of morality, religion, and the thankfully evolving & improving moral zeitgeist.
I admit that I have built in morals, as do most people except for sociopaths, and except (in part) for people currently tied down by meme sets that are infecting their brains & making them less moral than they would otherwise be.
Religion can make people less moral than they would otherwise be (eg: suicide bombers as one example). The ivory tower of academics can do the same, for example where students learn the "value" of moral & cultural relativism, and the lie of the blank slate.
Did your god have sex with Mary the mother of Jesus? Does your god live on Kolob? Is Mohamed god's messenger? If you don't believe any one, two, or three of these three points, then maybe it's notillusory to be a so-called atheist.
We aren't required to choose between the ass hole tea baggers of Fox News & the current Republican Party, and the similarly anally retentive feminazi zero population growth ultra lefties who love PETA and similar groups, and who believe that women who're homemakers are selling themselves short. A pox on both of their houses. We're moving forward, as natural humans who're interested in truth and what science reveals about everything. And when your preconceived or inculcated notions are debunked, then drop them. I'll try to do the same.
What is the influence of Islam on Islamic women in America. At a school an adult employee covers up her rear end and tight jeans with a large pillow. Previously she allowed her sexy behind to be seen by all. Another Islamic female employee changes her head covering so that it covered even more of her face - closing the circle ever tighter. During Ramadan employees of the school are obliged to not ear their lunch in front of Islamists present, or in their building, for fear of offending them. W-T-F?
Silverman doesn't speak for all atheists. Atheism is not a religion per se, and we aren't required to join hands with everyone who may be classified as an atheist.
Merry Christmas. Happy Solstice. Merry Festivus. Whatever. I don't have a problem with any of these unlike Silverman.
And Singer's past comments are disturbing, wrong, and amoral. Religion is a natural phenomenon. Whatever good comes from religion still is natural, not supernatural. So Dinesh should make note of that, if he can. And at the same time, being an atheist doesn't have to mean being a zero population growth ultra-leftie.
I don't have a problem with American Atheists as a group per se, but I'm not into leader-worship though. So Silverman is just plain wrong on the specific point of Singer's morality or lack thereof. Since atheism is not a religion per se we're not obliged to kowtow to arguments from authority.
There is a theme of relativistic amorality in the ivory tower. I agree with the assessment of Steven Pinker and Sam Harris about the state of higher education in America, with their belief in the blank slate, and advocacy for cultural & moral relativism so anally retentive that it's no problem for these people if religions oppress their own people. Who are we to say what's moral? We are. And not everything is relative...
''...the authors argue that what we
call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a
newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is,
including cases
where the newborn is not disabled..."
While I agree that abortion in the first two trimesters should remain legal, I think there's good arguments to be made for highly discouraging the practice at the very least during that time, and good reason to bar it legally after the first two trimesters:
So, I do differ with Singer. I'd rather see all the dogs and pigs on this planet destroyed than to see one innocent human child killed. So, how's that for atheist morality?
It's not the atheism or theism that's the issue here. Most people have built in morals, except for psychopaths and sociopaths, and people who've spent far too much time in the morally & culturally relativistic sewer of academia.
“For nearly a century, the moral relativism of science has given faith-based religion--that great engine of ignorance and bigotry--a nearly uncontested claim to being the only universal framework for moral wisdom. As a result, the most powerful societies on early spend their time debating issues like gay marriage when they should be focused on problems like nuclear proliferation, genocide, energy security, climate change, poverty, and failing schools.”
"...the consequences of moral relativism have been disastrous. And science's failure to address the most important questions in human life has made it seem like little more than an incubator for technology. It has also given faith-based religion -- that great engine of ignorance and bigotry -- a nearly uncontested claim to being the only source of moral wisdom. This has been bad for everyone. What is more, it has been unnecessary -- because we can speak about the well-being of conscious creatures rationally, and in the context of science. I think it is time we tried."
-------------------------
1-8-12 addendum:
Video commentary added:
And another blog post:
atheist morality: response to Peter Singer, Moshe Averick: after birth abortions, infanticide, and human rights http://jonathanshome.blogspot.com/2013/01/atheist-morality-response-to-peter.html
Micro-managing bean counting nazis. But, do I want to switch to Linux
full time? Not really. The community helps fight back against what M$
may do. Apple is no better & controls their users even more IMO.
Vista was a slow draggy POS best avoided. Windows 7 was much better. And now, 8 may well be a POS best avoided if possible. Can't they just stick to one interface and stop stripping good stuff out? Or at least allow more choice? If not, we'll f-ing do it ourselves...
...The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice. If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it...
And a relevant quote from the comments section of linked to blog:
President, I have a very embarrassing yet pertinent question I feel I
must raise. As a daughter of Zion, I have always kept myself pure unto
the Lord, which has led to some difficulties in the marital bed. My
dear husband has discovered the key to unlocking my glorious God-given
pleasure center is through his own oral skills. In fact, I cannot
achieve a certain high point without such activity. If we follow our
Lord's annointed's advice, I fear I shall never achieve sexual
satisfaction again. What is more important do you think? Perhaps
continue this practice and then repent once we are old and don't care
about sex any more? Oh help me President, I am so torn!!
As for the Pompeii bath house art shown above, I've found that there's apparently other humans with similarly healthy exuberance also.
Trey Parker has apparently had a fascination with Mormon culture, although as an outsider he doesn't quite understand everything. For example his portrayal of a Mormon family in the South Park episode All About Mormons he portrays a Mormon family as being more happy than other families, and that a kid in that family didn't really care about the wacky stuff in this religion. But his portrayal of what life is really like in Mormon families is not quite accurate. There's also a lot of pain,stress, and guilt. Also in Utah there's a great deal of anti-depressant use. Here's the video of the episode: http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s07e12-all-about-mormons
and more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_About_Mormons
When I first saw Orgazmo several years ago I knew the best thing that could happen would be for all Mormons, especially all old the fart Mormon leaders, to immediately receive the influence of the following device, an orgazmorator.
When they're up there in General Conference giving stuffy nosed I-am-so-important-when-I-speak-in-a-low-voice pompous pious speeches, the best thing that could ever happen would be for such a device to be activated, so that they & all the crowd assembled would be similarly affected.
